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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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 Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 8:22 am Post subject: Origin of the word "scimitar"? |
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Anyone happen to know where this word first popped up? I'm somewhat sure I saw it in an 18th century Scottish source that used it to describe falchions, as if to imply the Persian shamshir fell under the same category. Not sure where that source was, I'll post back if I can find it. But if anyone has any info, I'd be curious to know.
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Ah, looks like it was Castle who used it to define what a Falchion is: "The word comes from the Latin Falx, through the Italian Falcione, meaning a scymitar..." So that could mean that Castle was just using "scymitar" as a descriptive term, making this an irrelevant source of evidence.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Some have speculated it comes from the same root as "shamshir".
Being no linguist, I've no idea, but would certainly like to know.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Man, what I wouldn't give for "at will" access to the U of MD libraries sometimes. If I had a clue while I was in college...
If anyone has access to the massive (multiple volumes!  ) dictionary that shows the roots of words - can't even remember what it's called...  I think it's the "Complete Oxford English Dictionary" or something like that. That thing is awesome for precisely this type of question.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | Man, what I wouldn't give for "at will" access to the U of MD libraries sometimes. If I had a clue while I was in college...
If anyone has access to the massive (multiple volumes! ) dictionary that shows the roots of words - can't even remember what it's called... I think it's the "Complete Oxford English Dictionary" or something like that. That thing is awesome for precisely this type of question. |
Good ol' OED. A truly iconic publication in the literary and academic fields. 
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 9:29 am Post subject: |
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OK... I think I'm getting it now.
Alina posted in the original thread:
| Alina Boyden wrote: | | They should know that a scimitar isn't a type of sword at all. |
and, though I hate to cite non-source documents or information, the following does cite the OED - the source I mentioned  :
Shamshir is a Persian word for "sword," which has come to refer to a type of sabre with a curve that is considered radical for a sword: 15 to 30 degrees from tip to tip. Although the name has been associated by popular etymology with the city of Shamshir (which in turn means curved like the tigers nail) the word has been used to mean "sword" since ancient times, as attested by the Pahlavi word šmšyl, and the Ancient Greek σαμψήρα (glossed as "foreign sword.")
The sword now called "shamshir" was popularized in Persia by the early 16th century, and had "relatives" in Turkey (the kilic), Mughal India (the talwar), and the ajoining Arabian world (the saif). These blades all were developed from the ubiquitous parent sword, the Turko-Mongol saber. Shamshir at times was called 'samsir'; this is usually taken to be the root of the word scimitar, though the OED considers this uncertain. Scimitar is now a more inclusive (though perhaps inaccurate) term.
Credit where credit is due - this info came from the following link:
http://www.sterlingsilvercenter.com/articles/Shamshir
So, it seems, it's just a general term of probable, yet questionable root.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 9:31 am Post subject: |
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An etymology dictionary I have (bit out of date now) is a bit puzzled by scimitar. Gives it as :
1548, from M.Fr. cimeterre (15c.) or It. scimitarra, of uncertain origin. Turkish would be the expected source, but no such word has been found there. Perhaps from Pers. shimshir (pronounced "shamsher," cf. Gk. sampsera "a barbarian sword," from this source), but OED finds this "unsatisfactory as to form." Many early variations; the modern spelling is from influence of the It. form of the word.
I can check the OED when I get home but it appears from the above that the OED may not have a clear answer either.
Daniel
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Daniel Parry wrote: | An etymology dictionary I have (bit out of date now) is a bit puzzled by scimitar. Gives it as :
1548, from M.Fr. cimeterre (15c.) or It. scimitarra, of uncertain origin. Turkish would be the expected source, but no such word has been found there. Perhaps from Pers. shimshir (pronounced "shamsher," cf. Gk. sampsera "a barbarian sword," from this source), but OED finds this "unsatisfactory as to form." Many early variations; the modern spelling is from influence of the It. form of the word.
I can check the OED when I get home but it appears from the above that the OED may not have a clear answer either.
Daniel |
Heh. My search at www.etymonline.com came up with the exact same entry.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Just checked my OED and both my etymology dictionary and the online site seem to have copied the OED entry verbatim as the first para of the OED entry is exactly the same (so much for copywrite !)
OED does go on to suggest two more:
Cimaterra ( a Basque word meaning 'sharp edged') but lists it as an unlikely source.
Cymitharra ( a sword carried by Turkish Janissaries (I think they were sultanate bodyguards but not sure) under the Ottomans). That would at least fit broadly with the date of introduction into Romance languages and the possibly the contact via Ottoman approaches to Europe but the OED seems unsure.
That's all I've got in my books.
Daniel
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 10:11 am Post subject: |
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You guys are awesome.
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Helen Miller
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Scimitar
From Wikipedia
The term scimitar refers to a sword with a curved blade from western Asia.
While the name 'scimitar' is quite prevalent when speaking of Middle-eastern swords, in reality there is no such 'historic sword' called a scimitar. The word scimitar is a derivative from the Persian shamshir. This is indeed a deeply curved sword found in middle eastern history: however scimitar has become a catchall which often includes the Indian tulwar and the archetypal Turkish kilij. Modern vendors sell scimitars which are in fact fantasy blades with no historical bearing. These often come from stylized artistic representation of Middle-Eastern arms (paintings, and film); similarly the romanticized notion that these curved swords were used to combat the crusaders in the 11th to 13th century is inaccurate (swords of the time were mostly straight with a slightly curved tip).
Scimitars can be found in one or two handed variants, with blades ranging in length from around 30" to 36", and the blades, while commonly depicted as being very wide (from cutting edge to the rear of the blade), seem most often have been very thin.
It seems likely that scimitar-type weapons were developed from examples of swords brought by the conquering Macedonians under Alexander the Great, such as the kopis sword, itself derived from the Egyptian khopesh sword. Further, it is possible that the falchion swords employed in the Middle Ages by Europeans were inspired by the scimitars of the Turks. Modern examples of similar blades are cavalry sabers and cutlasses of pirate fame.
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-"A woman's tongue is her sword, and she does not let it rust."
Proverb
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Bill Grandy wrote: | | You guys are awesome. |
This is what I really love about this site, it's forums, and it's population. Good questions, and a willingness to help find decent answers. I can't begin to count up the times a void has been filled, an illusion shattered, muddy water cleared, or a new avenue opened for me by everyone here - definitely and often including you, Bill.
-Aaron Schnatterly
_______________
Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 19 Apr, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting this question Bill!
It's one that I've often wondered about but never bothered to research. I knew that it wasn't correct in the context that it's commonly used in, but I didn't know why exactly.
The readership comes through again.
Neat!
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Thu 21 Apr, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Last small note on this, Bill.
The word (in various spellings) apparently comes up in William Shakespeare, Edmund Spenser and Ben Jonson. As they were all popular and well read poets of the late 16th to early 17th centuries and would presumably not have chosen words their readers would not understand (particularly as Dr Johnson's first dictionary was more than 100 years later), I think we can assume that the word (wherever it derived from) was commonly understood in English by the Elizabethan era.
Daniel
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Steve Fabert
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This is a standard topic