[Matthew Kelty]

I think everyone has pretty much hit on a lot of the key points, so I'll not wax too prosaic, and just offer some period information. I recently was handed a translation of the Ceremony for the Knight's of Saint Stephen of Tuscany (Santo Stefano, founded in 1568 by Cosimo De Medici). Santo Stefano was founded to fight the Turkish Pirates in the Mediterranean, so it was a Naval Order, with their members being brought in as 3rd level (Lay) Benedictines (monk is too heavy of a word, but their dedication was to the Church).

The sword was very much considered their tool for doing God's work, and the tapping was the symbolism of them being deputized into a Militia.

Here is the pertinent snippet:

...when the Profitente has been dressed in the long vestments of a layman, and belted, he is conducted by the Master of Ceremony to the Knights who purpose it is to deputize, and after having received the sword, or dagger stripped of all the gilt, they return with the Master of Ceremony...

......he will stand back somewhat and be given two blows and going back to the aforesaid Master of Ceremony in attendance with the Knights, whom they will principally go to, and whom they’ll offer it to with great reverence and the Knights will take it up, and place it back within its sheath, ...

While the whole process is a very lenghty Mass, the sword is in no way treated as anything other than a sword. It receives a blessing, in order that it's purpose be true, and is kissed by the recipient upon receipt, but it is simply a tool.

If anyone is interested in the full text, I can point you to the person who transcribed the original.

Matthew

[Anders Lindkvist]

There are plenty of verses in the Bible about the symbolics of the Sword and God...

Psalm 17:13
Rise up, O LORD , confront them, bring them down; rescue me from the wicked by your sword.

Psalm 149:6
May the praise of God be in their mouths and a double-edged sword in their hands (nice one...)

Isaiah 66:16
For with fire and with his sword the LORD will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the LORD .

Ezekiel 21:11
" 'The sword is appointed to be polished, to be grasped with the hand; it is sharpened and polished, made ready for the hand of the slayer.

Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Great symbolic verse...)


These are just samples and there are plenty of them...

[Joel Whitmore]

If you cynics think the knight's view of his sword was no of no more importance than his utility knife, can you explain why the sword was such and important part of the knighting ceremony itself? I don't think that many of the knights lived up to the tenants of what we today think of as chivalry. However, to say that a knight placed no more symbolic value or significance on his sword than any other weapon in his arsenal, I think is being a little simplistic and certainly too general. I realize that one has to sift through the Victorian distortions of a knight's life, but I think there was someting to a knight's sword somewhere between his spurs and what the Samurai thught of his sword. Now please keep in mind here that I am talking about symbolic significance and not it's use on the battlefield. Certainly if we keep this relegated to martial significance, then the lance would win out here. But following the thread, I think the original intent was to look at the symbolic role the sword played. Personally I think that the knight would place great symbolic significance on his sword after his knighting which would probably fade after a time. Just my 3.14 cents.


Joel

[Steve Fabert]

[Matthew Kelty]

>It's my understanding that the sword used in a knighting ceremony was the overlord's sword, not the sword of the squire who was being knighted.

There are examples of both situations. In the Santo Stefano ceremony, it is described as being the potentiate's sword being used, and in the Papal Knighthood, it is the Grand Master's sword that is used. Additionally, there are two different blessings used, one that the Grand Master's sword gets, that essentially describes using it wisely to discern Valor and Honor among men, and having the strength to lead. For the potentiate, it's a blessing that reminds them to strike true, but with Justice and Mercy.


>can you explain why the sword was such and important part of the knighting ceremony itself?

Well, it *is* an important part of the ceremony, but no more important than the spurs (they get blessed, too), the chain or collar (again, another blessing), the habit or mantle (yup, blessing here, too), and the crosses of the Order (yup, yet another blessing).

In all honesty, more is spoken of the Chain, Cross and Mantle than the sword. *These* symbols were his reminder that he was bound and yoked, and served God's purpose by serving his Master's purpose. The sword was girded on with only a little more than a "Congratulations, son. You're in the Army now..." kind of sentiment.

I'm not saying that the sword isn't a key reminder of the Knight's pride, honor, or duty, but I think this thread was initially focused on whether the Knights viewed their Swords as an Icon, Crucifix, Cross or Altar, of which there is no evidence they did. It is a sword, the sword being a mighty symbol in it's own right (and as someone illustrated with the biblical references), the sword is a symbol of power, vengeance, mercy, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

If you were to ask the question, what symbols most strongly remind a Knight of his job, it would definitely be the sword, the chain, the spurs, the horse, and the lance, and the sword probably *will* top the list, but I think to imply a deferential *awe* upon the sword as being some holy relic that summons Angels whenever it is drawn is naive and romantic.

As far as a comparison of West vs. East, I don't beleive there are *ANY* similarities in the Eastern blade rituals and anything the West did. While us roundeyes certainly had/have our own rituals and rites in our culture, we've *never* had anything to compare with the rigid discipline and formality developed in the East regarding personal ceremony. We've got collective, or perhaps better described as "Social" ritual in spades (Mass, Communion, Carnival, Bringing in the May, Sin eating, etc.), but nothing insofar as the "Personal" ritual in comparison.

[Don Stanko]

I do not think that I am qualified to take one side over another on this issue. I may not believe that strong symbolism was placed on the sword in medieval times but I cannot deny that swords of the Viking period were seen as supernatural and even given names. And symbolism has been used on other weapons. The Ballock Dagger is probably the best known example, being seen as a phallic symbol. I will just stop by saying that the sword was probably cherished and even loved. Just think how you feel about your own swords.

Don

[S. Bjelke]

It is of course differences from knight to knight. I believe most of them had a "relationship" to their swords, much like the proffesional (rifle shooters???) of today. Many of them spend lots of time care taking for their rifle, and often insist in doing so by them self. Like a time of contemplation and meditation. And concidering the strong belief some of the knights had, I would not be surprised if praying often was connected with the sword. OR to say it in a diffrent way, connected to the meditation. (wich I praying is much about). So a direct connection with the sword might only acour in some "fanatic" cases, but I believe that most knights had a personal relationship to their swords.

[Kirk Lee Spencer]

As I was reading this thread awhile back I remembered that I had seen descriptions of taking oaths upon the cross of the sword in Malory c. 1470... However I was not sure so I did not post. However, I am now involved in creating an anthology from Thomas Malory's Le Mort D'Arthur for a class that I am teaching... I ran across one such instance at the end of Book 9.

Here is the quote:

"And then Sir Kay lashed at Sir Andred, and therewithal King Mark yielded him unto Sir Gaheris. And then he kneeled adown, and made his oath upon the cross of the sword, that never while he lived he would be against errant-knights. And also he sware to be good friend unto Sir Tristram if ever he came into Cornwall."

“Le Mort d'Arthur” Thomas Malory c. 1470
Book 9
CHAPTER 39

ks

[Bob Uhl]

[Patrick Kelly]

[Steve Grisetti]

[Alina Boyden]

Interesting tidbit:

At her trial, Ste. Jehanne d'Arc was questioned as to whether she had ever had her sword blessed, laid it upon an altar, or prayed that it might be more successful. She replied that she had never done so, but that she had many times prayed for her armor to be more successful.

[Taylor Ellis]

As an infantryman in the Royal Australian Regiment, I can honestly say I have never seen a soldier think of his rifle or bayonet or m72 or whatever as anything more than tools. You care that they are functional and maintained, but that's it. Perhaps the reason my swords are more personally important to me is because I own them and had to spend a lot of money on them? I don't know, maybe the sword is simply a more personal weapon.

[Patrick Kelly]

[Jean Thibodeau]

In my A.V. job I would sometimes do 35mm photography and as long as it worked as it should I didn't even notice any scratches, dings or nicks on the compagny owned camera that would have driven me crazy with my own equipment.
But I also didn't abuse it either !

Same thing I guess if I was in the military or police with the issue weapon: Respect the equipment, keep it reliable but who cares about blemishes when it's not yours.

So with a battlefield weapon the reverence for a working sword might be minimal in day to day use.
At the same time a seriously wounded or dying Knight might take advantage of a sword's crossguard in a religious context:
So depending on circumstances the same sword could be a taken for granted work tool or a religious icon.

[Edward Hitchens]

Earlier in this forum topic, a few of you guys mentioned inscriptions on sword blades (I just got done reading every post on this subject). Alas, let us not forget the badge of Edward III's Order of the Garter (Hony Soit Qui Mal y Pense) inscribed on the blade of that famous sword. The Order probably wasn't a religious order per se, but if I remember correctly, the idea was emulate King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table.

Also, we know of many tombs in England, Germany, and elsewhere in which we see the knight lying down holding his sword with the blade pointing toward his feet. The first that comes to my mind is that of the Black Prince who was buried in Canturbury Cathedral (can still be seen today) after he died in 1376. He was holding his sword in such a way until 2-1/2 centuries or so later, Cromwell supposedly stole it.

Oh, and one more question: If swords weren't meant to be icons of religion or spirituality, how is it that many of them were (and still are) found in churches and cathedrals (i.e. the sword of Henry V in Westminster Abbey)? -Ted

[Chad Arnow]

[Steve Grisetti]

[Gabriel Stevens]

I can't remember the guy's name but I think he was a contemporary with Edward of Woodstock, anyway I believe his effigy has the same pose, hands together on his chest, sword sheathed at his side.

[Edward Hitchens]