Historical Combat Instruction -- myArmoury.com

Lance Higgins · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: Historical Combat Instruction

I am interested in learning historical armed combat techniques.
I have access to many wonderful resources and historical manuals on sword training etc.....
But here is my dilemma,
while it may be readily obvious to an experienced practicioner what is being conveyed in these manuals a novice like myself can not make out in any useful way what the majority of the movements being taught in these books actually are. It is very hard for me to glean much useful information from centuries old hand drawings and the mostly untranslated text. (even when translated I am at a loss)
It seems just trying to go by the illustrations, you could never get any idea of actual movement and proper form.
So here are my questions:
Am I alone here or does anyone have the same problem?
Are there any instruction materials out there to make things understandable for those that cannot figure out complicated series of movements from few hand drawn (sometimes poorly drawn) pictures?
I do not begin to insult the works of the masters, it is more my lack of being able to make much sense of that mastery from what is provided to my poor 21st century visual input processing system.
Can any of you fine experienced gentlemen recommend and training materials that you might have used to get you familiar enough with the basics to be able to look at one of these manuals and have a good idea of what they were trying to convey?

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject:

Chivalry Bookshelf offers many worthwhile titles. Quite a few of these are translations of the period manuscripts, with accompanying photographs that help the reader break down the action.

www.chivalrybookshelf.com

P. Owens · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject:

You might also try visiting Schola St. George which happens to have a branch in Dallas. You can learn more about them at their web site --Google their name and it should pop right up. Brian Price, the publisher behind Chivalry Bookshelf, is the principle instructor there.

You might also think about attending one of the many HES conferences that are held each year. These would allow you to learn a variety of different systems from a variety of instructors, helping you decide what system and what approach you would like to take to the material. There are two that I know of at the end of the summer. ISMAC will be in August, and WMAW will be in September. Google each and add the word "sword" and you should be able to find more information on each.

Regards,

~PO

Lance Higgins · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 4:07 pm Post subject: Historical Combat Instruction

Patrick, thanks for the bookstore link. It is amazing how simply I can pick up the gist of what is going on from an actual photograph demonstrating the move. I found a book and ordered it that looks promising. I saw an illustration from a historic manual depicting a technique with two drawn figures and then with two participants demonstrating the same thing in a photograph, i grasped immediately what was going on from the photo. I look at the historic illustration again and would never have guesses that the two depictions were showing the same thing. A photo just helps me understand spatial relations and positions far better.

P. Owens, thanks for the heads up on instruction that is withing a 20 minute drive of my location. Are they open to beginners or is it an experienced only setup?

Any one else with sites or info to recommend please let me know, i will take any info you have.

Thanks.

Aaron Schnatterly · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject:

Lance-

Personally, if I were that close to Schola, I'd be seriously checking into them. Nothing is going to beat knowledgeable instruction and a competent sparring partner.

I would suggest you think on what period / style you want to learn. If your interest is in rapiers, for example, you won't get satisfaction from I:33's sword and buckler or Ringneck's German longsword. You might want to look into Price's Renaissance Swordsmanship (or something close... has a black and red cover). For me, the German Longsword is my bag; my personal favorites are Tobler's books. The photo-essays are good with a solid study and a lot of time spent with sword in hand. They are NOT chill on the couch and read cover to cover and expect to really have a clear understanding. There are lots of others as well for lots of other styles and periods - we may be able to help you best if you can give us a better idea of what you are looking for. Help us narrow the field a bit, and we can put you on target faster.

Gene Davis · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject:

Lance,
After nearly 30 years of active sword training and instructing in both Japanese and European systems my advice is find an experienced, reputable instructor who can watch you train and make corrections when needed. Once you have the basics down correctly the books are great, but without that initial in-person guidance, you're likely to develop bad habits that are hard to be rid of after a while. It's kind of like learning to drive a car by reading a book: possible, but not really recommended. And remember, most of the fechtbucher and manuals were directed at experienced swordsmen who already had the basics down and a lot of training time under their belts. That's part of why the old manuals are not readily understandable to beginners. They weren't meant to be. Hope this helps, and best of luck to you.

David Kite · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject:

ARMA also has a Dallas/Ft. Worth study group. Go to ARMA's practice partner page to get the email contacts. http://www.thearma.org/Practice/partners.htm

Okay, though I'm too computer illiterate to post a working link, you've at least got the url there. Sorry.

David Kite
ARMA in IN

Aaron Schnatterly · Posted: Mon 04 Apr, 2005 6:42 pm Post subject:

Lance Higgins · Posted: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 3:15 pm Post subject: Historical Combat Techniques

Aaron, Gene and David,

Thank you for your helpful responses. I agree, person to person instruction would be best. I have tried fruitlessly to find someone willing to give private instruction which would better suit the travel schedule of my job.

I have looked into ARMA in my area, it seemed like exactly what I was looking for.
I sent emails inquiring about the study group. On their site it says "resource for historical fencing and medieval and renaissance combat techniques"
While I am aware they did not teach the traditional sport fencing with a foil ,I made the mistake of using the term I saw on the site "historical fencing" in my inquiry email.
I was responded to with an email stating the fact that they don't teach fencing. After an explanation of why fencing was not a correct term It was explained what they do cover. While the email was not rude in any way, the way it was presented gave the impression that it might be a very stiff group with not much room for a beginner. I am sure I took the email the wrong way but after being in the firearms community for many years I have encountered quite a few elitist attitudes that discouraged beginners. (I am not saying that that is what I encountered with ARMA in any way)
I just wanted to avoid finding that in my introduction to the bladed weapons community so I never investigated further. I will look into it again as like I said I probably interpreted the response in the wrong way.

I look forward to looking into Schola St. George. Thanks again guys for your helpful responses and information.

I am very interested in Long sword instruction as well as medieval and Viking single handed sword instruction. I also have a Gladius I would like to learn how to use. I guess my interests focus on those areas, so any other references you can provide for a newby keep it coming. Thanks again Gentlemen.

Aaron Schnatterly · Posted: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Historical Combat Techniques

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Tue 05 Apr, 2005 8:46 pm Post subject:

All of C.H. Tobler's books on German swordsmanship are excellent.

Guy Windsor's book The Swordsman's Companion is outstanding as well. This is an excellent resource for the begining student who has to train alone, in fact that's one of the books primary focuses. This one is based around the Italian longsword school.

The books on the Royal Armouries Manuscript I.33 are The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship by Jeffrey Forgeng, and Medieval Sword and Shield by Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand. The former is a copy of the original manuscript with translated text, while the later is a modern breakdown of the techniques illustrated in the manuscript. The system described in these centers around the sword and buckler, not the sword and shield combat of the armoured knight.

Aaron Schnatterly · Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 7:17 am Post subject:

David Kite · Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Historical Combat Techniques

R. D. Simpson · Posted: Wed 06 Apr, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject:

David Kite · Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 9:22 am Post subject:

Lance Higgins · Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: Historical Combat Techniques

Wow, I am getting much useful information with each post. Thanks guys.

I realize my interests are all over the place but as I learn more I will be able to narrow my focus on what I would like to study.
I am hoping that one of the recommended study groups I will be trying will fit me and my learning style.

I have purchased a wonderful publication from the book seller Patrick recommended that is geared towards the beginner
as far as terminology, history, areas of study and such. I will know soon be able to understand more of the references made in the conversations I follow in this forum.
I am making the first step in my education of the blade and am very excited.
I am looking forward to both self study and guided study and person to person practice as well.

Thanks

Lance Higgins · Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: Historical Combat Techniques

Aaron,
Guy Windsor's book was the one I purchased to start out with. For a total beginner like me it is perfect. It will be a great stepping stone in my education.
For someone who had no knowledge in the subject it has answered many of my most basic questions that I was not comfortable asking on a site with more advanced persons.

Aaron Schnatterly · Posted: Thu 07 Apr, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Historical Combat Techniques