[Anton Lichauco]

Why does the sword flex?

Being in the Philippines, I have no access to seeing / handling Western swords. My original interest and my collection is the katana and I have been able to acquire both production and custom Japanese swords. I have some knowledge of JSA but absolutely no knowledge of Western swordsmanship and some knowledge of Japanese sworn making but nothing on Western sword smithing.

With this as a background, I hope you don't mind this question.. I recently bought an ATrim as I wanted to learn more of Western swords. Being used to the weight and rigidity of the katana, I was completely surprised at the weight and more so, the degree the ATrim flexed compared to a katana. I always assumed that a Western sword (especially a cruciform) would be heavier and more rigid.

With the ATRim, I also got to appreciate the concept of CoP; a rap on the flat of the blade would cause vibration that you could feel. On a katana, you would have to concentrate much more to feel this vibration.

My question is why? First, is this a function of an ATrim? Would a sword (say a 15th century hand an a half replica) from Albion or other makers be just as light and "flexy"? Would antique swords display this same characteristic?

Is this be a function of sword length...having a shorter sword (closer to 30" blade) have less flex? Or are Western swords really made to flex regardless of length.

From a Western martial arts standpoint, is there a reason for this? Why would a Western sword be more flexible? Forgeting tamashigiri and Coke bottles, what would be the advantage of a "flexy" sword in combat?

Would degrees of flexibility depend of the period of the sword? Would 12th century swords be more rigid than say, the 15th century swords? Would earlier swords be thicker and have more weight per inch?

My apologies for these basic questions ... access to information over here is extremely limited and I really want to expand my sword horizons and learn more about and appreciate Western swords.

Thanks a lot.

[Patrick Kelly]

Hello Anton, and welcome to myArmoury.

There are several articles on our features page that discuss the mechanics involved in western swords. Many of your question can be answered there.

Are western swords designed to flex? The short answer is yes, and no. As you have already observed, there is quite a bit of difference in the construction of a european swords as compared to a japanese sword. Due to their construction, which includes cross sectional design and heat treating, european swords will be much more flexible than their japanese counterparts. This is not an issue of better or worse, but simply one of design and intended function.

Many european sword designs will be very rigid. Some of the thrusting dedicated designs of the late 14th through the mid 15th centuries will exhibit very little, if any, flex to them. These swords were made with the intention of punching a hole in the improving armor of the period, like a big ice pick. As such, flexibility would have been a detriment to their function. Early european designs that are more cutting oriented will exhibit more flexibility, as will later period designs intended for the dual purpose role of cutting and thrusting.

Swords from other makers will exhibit as much flexibility as you Atrim, but it dependes on the design and intended function of the sword. In a nutshell, your Atrim is fine. It's supposed to be that way.

[Anton Lichauco]

Patrick -- Thank you for the welcome; I've been here and in other forums (fora?) for quite some time and a bit old enough to know that the Euro vs. katana discussion goes totally no where. Different times, cultures, manufacturing processes, etc. so that discussion is moot. My reference to the katana is a matter of convenience and resource...I understand (a bit) about the katana but have no access to Western swords (except for horribly made 10 lbs. wallhangers) and I do want to learn.

That's why I posted here rather than in other places; I know that the members here would see my post as a matter of getting information rather than a "this is better than that" discussion and will not allow the thread to deteriorate into that level. I have also read the articles in this site (very informative and thanks).

Back to my question though...I assume that Western cutting swords are, by design, flexible. The question is why? Is it a matter of optimizing weight vs. length? In doing so, is flexibility key so that the blade does not take a bend or crack when it hits something hard or you have a bad cutting angle?

I have also read and understand a bit about CoP...how does this relate to the degree of flexiness? If no relation at all, is there a measure of flexiness...something that will tell a user that the this sword is too "whippy" or conversely, not flexible enough? How do Mr. Trim or Albion or other makers measure this...or is this irrelevant?

Patrick, sorry about all these questions...after receiving the ATrim, I realized how little I know about swords and would like to make up for this. Thanks in advance.

[Patrick Kelly]

Don't apologize for asking questions, that's what we're all here for. Learning and sharing with each other is what it's all about.

European swords, at least those designed primarily as cutting instruments, need to be flexible. This is due to reasons of durability. Earlier medieval swords, say from the 10th-12th centuries, were primarily dedicated to the cut. Examination of these swords will show that many of them are actually pretty thin in cross section, think of an overgrown butcher knife. If these swords had been made in a rigid fashion they would have broken under use.

Your comparison of european and japanese swords is very apt in this incident, because it exemplifies the need for flexibility in the european cutting sword. The dynamics of their use are very different. Cutting techniques with a japanese katana are primarily of the slicing variety. With a european sword most cuts are delivered in a cleaving and more penetrating manner. This results in quite a bit of stress being placed on the blade. If slow motion videos, or highspeed photography, of euro swords cutting are viewed quite a bit of flexing will be seen during the cut. Once again, if these swords didn't have that level of flexibility they would fail. A japanese sword can be damaged when an improper cut is executed, a european sword is a bit more forgiving in this regard. European armor, regardless of the period, tended to be heavier than its' japanese counterpart. Consequently, cutting techniques had to be developed to defeat it.

These two disparate types of swords are excellent examples of technology adapting to meet the tactical needs of the time, and place. Shorter european swords usually won't exhibit the same level of obvious flexibility because of their length. I say obvious because if you were to put one in a vice and flex it you would observe a certain amount of flexibility. There are many swords from the high middle ages and early renaissance that are short, and hollow ground, These swords do not exhibit the same level of flexibility due to their design, yet can still be very effective in the cut.

I don't really think the Center of Percussion relates to the level of flexibility, at least I've never observed any direct correlation of these two principles. Perhaps some of our more mechanically experienced members can comment on that.

As for a scale to rate the required flexibilty of a european sword, I don't think there is one. If the sword is so flexible that it makes control during a cut difficult, or results in excessive vibration, than it's obviously too much. If a sword is advertised as a cutting dedicated design, and it's as stiff as a knitting needle, it's probably not flexible enough. This is really one of those intangible things that can only be gauged by handling various european designs, and seeing what works and what doesn't

[Anton Lichauco]

Thanks Patrick... you're explanation on the katana cut vs. the Western "cleave" helped me understand the differences between the two swords and why flexiness is (was) a key feature. Sword use from a historical perspective also makes a lot of sense. I actually was hesitant to try the Atrim out because it's flexiness was....different from what I am used to. That the sword was designed to be more forgiving is good news and I will try this sword out over the week-end. By the way, it's an AT1518.

Really appreciate the time you've helped me understand things and thanks again.

[Patrick Kelly]

You're quite welcome Anton, and thank you for the excellent questions.

[Nathan Cole]

I know that there is no right level of flexibility for swords but what about flex before taking a set? I have a sword from Darksword Armory and I can give it a permanent kink by holding the hilt and tip and exerting moderate force. And it is and easy matter to bend it back against the knee. I thought that a sword should flex and return to true or be rigid enough to require tremendous force before bending into a permanent kink. Am I wrong to expect this kind or performance from a type X /XI sword. They are rather inexpensive swords $100-300 range but supposedly reenactment/stage combat worthy.
I would appreciate any advice.

Pax vobiscum,
Nathan Cole

(For a picture of my sword see #1501: http://www.darksword-armory.com/simg/033.jpg)

[Bill Grandy]

[Nathan Cole]

I work for a museum and we use reproduction swords in our education programs. Do have a recommendation for swords that are not too expensive but have a historically accurate look and weight. These don't necessarily need to be solid since we don't have to chop up our visitors For my personal collection I want a sword that is real in usability and function and I care less about historically accurate design. Is there a maker that makes decent "work swords" that are not just thickened up to take the stress? I doubt I will ever be in a position to spend more than $500 on a sword but I would rather spend the money and buy one quality piece than wasting more on $100 pieces of junk (metaphorically junk since most swords are still cool just because they look like swords even if they don't preform).

Thanks for the response,
Pax vobiscum,
Nathan

[Allen W]

I Have been more than happy with the few Hanwei repros of European swords that I have met.

[Alexi Goranov]

Hi Nathan,

$500 will get you a very nice sword indeed, and will give you a fairly broad choice options. Before I make a direct recommendation I will suggest that you take a look at the reviews page on his site. That will give you an idea about prices, expectations and makers. There is also an article from patrick Kelly describing the different price ranges and what comes with them. Usually, the more you pay the better product you will get.

As I said, you have options:
Museum Replica Limited- fairly cheep, but it is hit-or-miss type of sword line up. Some are good and some are not so good.
If you like something there, ask, and almost guaranteed somebody here will know something about it.

Del Tin-highly respectable italian sword maker. Prices ~$300-400. You can get them directly from Del Tin (unsharpened), or from Albion Armorers and Art Ellwell (sp) sharpened.

Lutel-From the check republic. Within the quality range of Del Tin.

Angus Trim (AllSaintsBlades)- Virtually all blades fall within the $300-500 range. Gus is very active on this forum so you can search the threads for comments from him and on his swords. I have an ATrim and it is an excellent sword.

Arms and Armor (USA) - Most swords >$400. Most (should I say all) swords are replicas of historical originals, and behave and handle as such.

Albion Armorers-may have some swords <$500, but I am not certain. historically accurate, high-end reproductions. Warmly recommend them if you can afford them.

By no means have I exhausted the list of sword manufacturers that can sell you a decent piece for less than $500. This is just a start up list. Again, check the reviews as many of these manufacturers will have items reviewed here. Also, searching the forums you will find much about almost any particular maker. Hopefully, other friendly forumites will chime in with a piece of advice.

Editted: Forgot to mention that the "links" section of this site has the links to all the makers I mentioned above and much more.

Good luck shopping. It should be very exiting.

Alexi

[Roger Hooper]

[Einar Drønnesund]

[Joe Fults]

Looks like Alexi named the usual suspects1

I'm very fond of A&A and I watch Albion with great interest.