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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 4:05 am    Post subject: Pre-Medieval type XVIII swords         Reply with quote

In the latest Spotlight article - http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxviii.html - it says 'According to Oakeshott, Type XVIII and its subtypes were "the most widely used swords between c. 1410 and 1510 all over Europe". The basic type was in use as long ago as the second century B.C. and as recently as the 18th century, but, for the purposes of this article, we will examine only Type XVIII swords of the late medieval period.' (Emphasis mine.)

I'd be very interested in hearing about, and possibly seeing, some examples of those earlier XVIIIs. The blade design is quite aesthetically pleasing IMO, but late Medieval is not really my main era of interest (though honestly, I'm not even sure if I have such a thing) so...

Oh and the new Spotlight article is fascinating, as always. Great work, Mr. Flynt! Happy

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Mikko!
Ancient arms are even farther afield for me than medieval, but if I remember correctly, Oakeshott considered some Celtic and Roman blade forms to be of general type XVIII (tapered cut & thrust blades of diamond section). I clearly remember that he singled out the spatha in his intro to the chapter on Type XVIII in Records. There are any number of folks here who will know this area well. Nate? Patrick? Kirk? Peter?

-Sean

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https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean;

Just curious, but do you think that the 15th century Twohander by A & A is a type XVIII of some sub-type ? The edges do taper in a rather strait line over most of the length of the blade althought the last 10" or so do gently curve to a semi spatulate point. ( Pointy but not needle like! )

Unless it's somewhere between a type XV and a type XVIII but in a very "giant" version of a war sword in style rather than the more specialysed 16th century Twohanders with more complex guard. ( Side rings etc... )

I have only been learning of Oakshott's classification system since getting on this Forum about a year ago, so my tendancy was and still is to look at each sword blade shape as a unique thing and use the classification system as a useful shorthand when discussing them without the benefit of having a picture of it: So, I usually don't obsess about type "this" or type "that" Big Grin

Oh, almost forgot, good article. ( Edited because what I just said, I forgot, Laughing Out Loud )

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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 9:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would certainly call that a type XVIII blade, but I'd defer to the experts if they disagree. Perhaps the A&A folks will weigh in.

You'd be amazed (or not) how much discussion went on behind the scenes for this article. We roped lots of folks into this one to try to account for weapons that don't perfectly fit any of the described sub-types. Like you, I feel that Oakeshott's typology is only one tool among many for classification of sword types, and an imperfect one at that. I think its greatest value is in its ability to get all of us on roughly the same page--so that if I start talking about a blade of Oakeshott Type XVIII, people will immediately know that we're dealing with a diamond-section, convex-tapered c&t blade. Then we can fill in details not accounted for in the typology. Oakeshott is deceased, unfortunately. He can't continue to update his work as he did throughout his long career, but we're constantly learning more about his subject through discussions such as this one. I suspect he'd be pleased if we think of his work as the foundation of future scholarship rather than a rigid form into which all new learning must be stuffed. Maybe someone such as Peter J. will take on the task of defining new Oakeshott subtypes. Then, to show our appreciation, we can all go visit him in the "nervous hospital". Laughing Out Loud

-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Thomas Laible




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:29 am    Post subject: celtic "XVIII"         Reply with quote

Hi,

this is a celtic sword, 2nd LaTene-Period.

Thomas



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Sean Flynt




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Thomas!
-Sean

Author of the Little Hammer novel

https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 11:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah yes, La Tene... Hah. For some reason, I always forget they also used other blade cross-sections besides the lenticular. Happy

(By the by, slightly off-topic, the Albion Next Gen Kingmaker is not based on any one specific historical specimen, is it? Along with the Sovereign/Sherrif and the Viking swords it's one of my favorites from their current line-up...)

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
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Thomas Laible




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a roman spatha, reconstructed by Patrick Barta
http://www.templ.net/weapons/antiquity_and_early_middleage.php

The common opinion among histrorians is, that the roman spatha is based on ther celtic longsword.

Thomas



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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas Laible wrote:
This is a roman spatha, reconstructed by Patrick Barta
http://www.templ.net/weapons/antiquity_and_early_middleage.php

The common opinion among histrorians is, that the roman spatha is based on ther celtic longsword.

Thomas

I quite like that ring-pommel spatha. One of the rarer designs in the replica market - and I mean "rare" as in "the only one I've seen". Happy

Is the pattern welding historically accurate for a Roman sword of this type?

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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B. Stark
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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have the feeling that there is some Sarmatian influence (particularly in the eastern Empire) as well concerning the Spatha types used throughout the Imperial period. Though the extremely pointed, diamond crossectioned blades seem to be somewhat of an enigma to me. By the the time the later Spatha was introduced as an infantry sidearm during the final era of the Empire(s) the realtively parrallel sided blades with moderate points seem to lead towards the idea of ease of manufacture or possibly loss of skill in the smithing trades do to loss of fabrication centers. Who can really say.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-Medieval type XVIII swords         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
I'd be very interested in hearing about, and possibly seeing, some examples of those earlier XVIIIs. The blade design is quite aesthetically pleasing IMO, but late Medieval is not really my main era of interest (though honestly, I'm not even sure if I have such a thing) so...

Oh and the new Spotlight article is fascinating, as always. Great work, Mr. Flynt! Happy



Hi Mikko...

Although I am certainly not an expert on Oakeshott typology, I agree with Thomas. I think that the closest blade designs to the XVIIIs and variants would be the Celtic long swords with diamond or hollow ground sections... and the Roman spathas with a declining profile taper.

Here is a photoshoped image comparing the early and late versions.

ks

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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

B. Stark wrote:
I have the feeling that there is some Sarmatian influence (particularly in the eastern Empire) as well concerning the Spatha types used throughout the Imperial period. Though the extremely pointed, diamond crossectioned blades seem to be somewhat of an enigma to me. By the the time the later Spatha was introduced as an infantry sidearm during the final era of the Empire(s) the realtively parrallel sided blades with moderate points seem to lead towards the idea of ease of manufacture or possibly loss of skill in the smithing trades do to loss of fabrication centers. Who can really say.

Hi Fafhrd. Big Grin

I figure it might also have something to do with the transition to a more cut-oriented style of swordplay, since this would not require the long narrow points found on the earlier, shorter stabbing swords (gladius hispaniensis, etc.).

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Mikko Kuusirati




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PostPosted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-Medieval type XVIII swords         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
Hi Mikko...

Although I am certainly not an expert on Oakeshott typology, I agree with Thomas. I think that the closest blade designs to the XVIIIs and variants would be the Celtic long swords with diamond or hollow ground sections... and the Roman spathas with a declining profile taper.

Here is a photoshoped image comparing the early and late versions.

ks

Nice picture, Kirk. Illustrates some finer points (hah!) of blade design rather nicely... as well as the fact that the development of sword forms has not been a linear advance from cutting blades towards the allegedly superior thrusting designs, contrary to popular belief.

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Thomas Laible




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikko Kuusirati wrote:
Is the pattern welding historically accurate for a Roman sword of this type?


I don't know exactly regarding this sword-type (but Patrick is working very exact, I believ his reconstruction to be true).
On roman daggers a special pattern welding was used called "Streifen-Damast" (striped damascus). I'll later scan a picture and post it.

Thomas
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Thomas Laible




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Mar, 2005 9:29 am    Post subject: striped damascus         Reply with quote

striped damascus on a pugio-blade (1st Century)

The pattern welded rod is rather crude and bend to a ,V'.

regards,
Thomas



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