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Thomas Laible
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 Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: Swords and the golden section? |
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Hello all.
Since I've heard that the principle of the golden section has been used on swords, I tried to figure out how this worked.
I got to the university library and checked any book on the golden section I could find, but - unfortunatly and "of course" I found nothing swords-related. I tried to figure it out myself, but I failed - my abilities in mathematics are worth a load of sh** 
Can anybody explain this to my dumb brain?
Thanks,
Thomas
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Good Lord, man!  Talk about an obscure question. I remember hearing about the Golden Section (Golden Mean?) in geometry class in high school, but my only memory of it is a vaque notion that it has something to do with the proportion and balance (symmetry?) of the rectangle. I believe that this principle has been used in the design of TV screens, business cards, buildings, art, music, etc. WAAAAYYYYY over my own head as well. Hopefully, we have a mathematician or two here who can explain it. Good luck.
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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The Golden Mean - 1.618 - Phi. It appears (as a ratio or factor) throughout nature as well as many man-made things throughout history. It is pleasing, comfortable, ergonomic, etc.
How it may apply to sword design, though... no clue. I vaguely remember reading something about it in that context a couple of months back, but damn... which of the hundred books... and only 2 of them are here with me now, and the most likely are in the vault, to which nobody has access until I get back home in a couple of weeks. Hopefully someone will have some info... Peter? Angus?
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Thomas Laible
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: | | Hopefully, we have a mathematician or two here who can explain it. Good luck. |
Oops - maybe i made myself not clear ...
A friend of mine is mathematician and he could explain me the general principle and I understood
But what he couldn't tell me how the golden section is used to design swords. At a knife site I found stated that it is the handle-to-blade-ratio, but this cannot be the whole thing.
Besides that - what works on a knife, does not in general work for swords.
Imagine a sword with an handle-to-blade-ratio of 1 to 1.618 ...
Thomas
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomas Laible wrote: |
Besides that - what works on a knife, does not in general work for swords.
Imagine a sword with an handle-to-blade-ratio of 1 to 1.618 ...
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Doesn't "feel" right, does it? Nice 32-inch blade with a 20-inch hilt 
Now that I think on it a little more... I seem to recall looking at an essay related to hilt/blade ratios on combat knives or something... in relation to the average thigh length or another anatomical measurement...
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Peter has used the golden section in designing Albion's swords, according to the info on the Squire Line and NG pages:
| Quote: | The principles of harmonic proportions, foremost the golden section, are an important design principle that can be observed in historical swords.
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ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Aaron Schnatterly wrote: | | Thomas Laible wrote: |
Besides that - what works on a knife, does not in general work for swords.
Imagine a sword with an handle-to-blade-ratio of 1 to 1.618 ...
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Doesn't "feel" right, does it? Nice 32-inch blade with a 20-inch hilt
Now that I think on it a little more... I seem to recall looking at an essay related to hilt/blade ratios on combat knives or something... in relation to the average thigh length or another anatomical measurement... |
It looks okay to me.......
Sorry, guys. I'll try to keep it serious from now on. I just couldn't resist this one.
Last edited by G. Scott H. on Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | Peter has used the golden section in designing Albion's swords, according to the info on the Squire Line and NG pages:
| Quote: | The principles of harmonic proportions, foremost the golden section, are an important design principle that can be observed in historical swords.
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But to what aspects was the rule applied? I do not think that it is the hilt to blade length ratio. But here is some food for thought:
grip length to cross-length
fuller width to blade width
fuller length to blade length, etc
Alexi
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Aaron Schnatterly
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: |
But to what aspects was the rule applied? I do not think that it is the hilt to blade length ratio. But here is some food for thought:
grip length to cross-length
fuller width to blade width
fuller length to blade length, etc
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I am remembering 2 distinct documents or discussions now... one was a discussion on knives and was related to blade/hilt ratio. Specifics elude me...
The other was more obscure - about swords - and it had something to do with vibration waves and harmonics, I think - again, the specifics elude me, but it didn't seem to be something that was measured with a simple ruler from obvious landmarks. At the time, I recall thinking "I'm too tired for this right now..." and don't remember what book I was in... or even if it was one in my own library or one I had borrowed...
-Aaron Schnatterly
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Fortior Qui Se Vincit
(He is stronger who conquers himself.)
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | But to what aspects was the rule applied? I do not think that it is the hilt to blade length ratio. But here is some food for thought:
grip length to cross-length
fuller width to blade width
fuller length to blade length, etc |
I agree that any of these ratios would be more likely and reasonable candidates for such measurement. The goofy PhotoShop picture I posted above would tend to rule out the hilt-blade ratio as the answer, for me. Of course, there could be, and probably is, something that we are leaving out of the equation. Like I said, I'm no mathematician.
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The other was more obscure - about swords - and it had something to do with vibration waves and harmonics, I think - again, the specifics elude me, but it didn't seem to be something that was measured with a simple ruler from obvious landmarks. At the time, I recall thinking "I'm too tired for this right now..." and don't remember what book I was in... or even if it was one in my own library or one I had borrowed...
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There is some discussion of blade harmonics in the piece, Understanding Blade Properties, by Patrick Kelly in the Features section of this site.
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: | | Quote: | But to what aspects was the rule applied? I do not think that it is the hilt to blade length ratio. But here is some food for thought:
grip length to cross-length
fuller width to blade width
fuller length to blade length, etc |
I agree that any of these ratios would be more likely and reasonable candidates for such measurement. The goofy PhotoShop picture I posted above would tend to rule out the hilt-blade ratio as the answer, for me. Of course, there could be, and probably is, something that we are leaving out of the equation. Like I said, I'm no mathematician. |
I posted before I saw you picture, so it was not intended against your pic.
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G. Scott H.
Location: Arizona, USA Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: | | I posted before I saw you picture, so it was not intended against your pic. |
Sorry for any misunderstanding, Alexi. I was not trying to be a smart-a$$ when I wrote that response. I was simply agreeing with you that the hilt length to blade length aspect of a sword probably isn't the determinig factor in the equation we have been discussing. I hadn't even considered whether or not you'd seen my picture when I made that post. The picture was only intended to be a humorous view of what a 1:1.618 hilt-to-blade sword might look like. No offense intended, and certainly none taken.
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Sun 13 Mar, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: |
Sorry for any misunderstanding, Alexi. I was not trying to be a smart-a$$ when I wrote that response. I was simply agreeing with you that the hilt length to blade length aspect of a sword probably isn't the determinig factor in the equation we have been discussing. I hadn't even considered whether or not you'd seen my picture when I made that post. The picture was only intended to be a humorous view of what a 1:1.618 hilt-to-blade sword might look like. No offense intended, and certainly none taken. |
 No problem. I should not have replied above, as it created more confusion than it cleared, and my brevity gave a rude feel to the post. Sorry
To get back on topic, could placement of the vibration nodes and/or pivot points follow the golden rule? To me this is less likely, as the "golden rule" (as far as I know) is an aesthetic feature and not an engineering one, which what the pivot points and CoP are.
I hope we hear from the swordsmiths.
Alexi
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| G. Scott H. wrote: | | Hopefully, we have a mathematician or two here who can explain it. Good luck. |
What you need is not a mathematician but an artist.
Wikipedia, BTW, has an excellent entry for the sectio aurea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Blaz Berlec
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
Location: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 717
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Thomas Laible
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| Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Howard Waddell wrote: | | The Svante, Peter discovered, was built by the Golden Section, in virtually every aspect. |
Howy,
could you explain it a little bit more ?
regards,
Thomas
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Thomas Laible
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| Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: | | To get back on topic, could placement of the vibration nodes and/or pivot points follow the golden rule? To me this is less likely, as the "golden rule" (as far as I know) is an aesthetic feature and not an engineering one, which what the pivot points and CoP are. Alexi |
Alexi,
the interesting point is, that you can find the golden section as "engineering principle" in nature .
Indeed it is so common, that advocates of creationist theology use it to "proof" the existence of Jahwe. If you ignore the theological aspect, you'll find some interesting and nicely illustrated informations at http://goldennumber.net/.
(unfortunatly nothing about swords )
Thomas
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Here's a thought...
Except for some two-handers, the hilt-to-blade-length ratio of most swords doesn't seem to be based on the golden mean. However, how about hilt-to-blade-MASS ratio? It would seem to me that placing the grip at the golden mean in relation to weight, rather than length, would result in a CoB some way below the cross, at a spot ideal for nimble cut-and-thrust blades...
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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