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Will S
Location: Bournemouth, UK Joined: 25 Nov 2013
Posts: 170
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 Posted: Mon 03 Nov, 2025 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | | Quote: | | I think there are references to pile or pike arrows for shooting clouts and butts somewhere, maybe in Latin. |
Pike arrows is an interesting one. Piked basically meant pointed so you can see it being applied to certain types of bodkin arrow, but it is such a vague term I doubt you could make that connection with certainty. |
Pike means many things - in archery terms, from the 1500s it means to remove the horns from a personal sporting bow, shorten the limbs and retiller it with rounder tips once the bow has been shot in. That was called "piking" and has no obvious relation to something being pointy.
It's a good example of why we need to be so careful of assuming medieval words only mean one thing! Pike and Byker aren't miles from each other and one could argue that if a sporting bow is Piked, then Biker/Byker heads are for those bows. I think it's too much of a leap personally but it makes for an interesting point.
The dates are far more important I think. 1422 is so far beyond the time of the spiked "bodkin" arrowhead that trying to force a vague term to fit that shape seems a bit daft. Arrowheads weren't that shape at that time, so the words used in 1422 can only have been references to known, used head shapes. We even have the strong distinction in supply records such as the 1403 CCR of "arrowheads AND quarrels" which shows that even by the very beginning of the 1400s arrowheads were different to quarrels, with quarrels meaning four-sided point.
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Mon 03 Nov, 2025 4:53 am Post subject: |
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While I fully acknowledge your expertise in archery, I do think you are at risk of avoiding common meanings of words to look for obscure alternatives. Pik meant something pointed in the vast majority of dictionary recorded uses across many subjects - weapons, tools, thorns, fish, shoes. That an arrow might be described pointed shouldn't be a surprise, but whether a specialist meaning lurks I wouldn't assume. I think I should be clear I am not suggesting pike arrow does mean what we call a bodkin arrow but that the term is vague enough that it could. Sean doesn't give a date as to when his is reference comes from - perhaps that might be useful?
Incidentally, Will, I'm interested whether you think all the four sided "bodkin" arrows are actually crossbow quarrels or just some? And apologies to Pedro for drifting away from his original topic.
Anthony Clipsom
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Will S
Location: Bournemouth, UK Joined: 25 Nov 2013
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Mon 03 Nov, 2025 5:10 am Post subject: |
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I'm with you entirely - maybe I'm not being clear with how I'm writing my thoughts - they are just alternative thoughts! The common meanings are usually the most telling, but in odd cases like "Byker" arrows etc, the common meanings haven't actually helped - despite the hundreds of years of arrowheads being made, used and written about the word Byker has only ever been used once, so I tend to think we're missing something, instead of it being obvious, as it is in most cases.
If a pike head is something pointy, that could still easily be a Type 5 head - they're round and pointy - in fact all arrowheads are pointy, really. Type 5s are essentially bullets, and some I've seen are incredibly sharp and pointy.
I'm more than happy to be wrong though!
Re bodkins - I believe the long needle bodkins were the standard military arrowhead for most of history, until plate appears in the 14thC. At that point, I think (and this is based strongly on the archaeology, artwork, testing, documentation etc) they may have tried shortening them for a brief period but very quickly chopped the point off and welded steel edges, barbs and wings over the socket as they're so easy to make, so effective against armour and match all the records, drawings etc.
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Mon 03 Nov, 2025 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | If a pike head is something pointy, that could still easily be a Type 5 head - they're round and pointy - in fact all arrowheads are pointy, really. Type 5s are essentially bullets, and some I've seen are incredibly sharp and pointy.
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Sounds plausible.
| Quote: | Re bodkins - I believe the long needle bodkins were the standard military arrowhead for most of history, until plate appears in the 14thC. At that point, I think (and this is based strongly on the archaeology, artwork, testing, documentation etc) they may have tried shortening them for a brief period but very quickly chopped the point off and welded steel edges, barbs and wings over the socket as they're so easy to make, so effective against armour and match all the records, drawings etc.
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No issues with that. I recall Tod did some experiments that showed so called "plate cutters" were a modern myth.
Anthony Clipsom
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Fri 14 Nov, 2025 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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John Bradmore describes how Prince Henry was wounded in the face with an arrow at the Battle of Shrewsbury: "the schaft' wase takyn owt and the hede ther of a bod styll' in the hyndyr parte of a bone of the hede after the mesur' of vj ynche" (Ralph Moffat, Medieval Arms and armour: A Sourcebook volume 2)
On first reading I think he means "the shaft was taken out and the head of a bod remained in a bone at the rear part of the skull to the depth of six inches." Is bod another arrow term? In his glossary Moffat suggests a bod is a form of abode "stayed" so the key phrase would be "the head of it (the hede ther of) remained still (a bod styll) in ... a bone of the head."
He also has examples of whole sheaves of darts like sheaves of arrows or bolts (so they were tied in bundles with a cord or belt).
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Sat 15 Nov, 2025 7:02 am Post subject: |
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I would agree the confusion is caused by Bradmore's spacing of his letters, as Ralph Moffat suggests.
"the hede therof abod styll" , while archaic now, is still comprehensible. An abode can mean a lodging (as in no fixed abode) so "the head thereof still lodged" would also be translation of the phrase.
Anthony Clipsom
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Sat 15 Nov, 2025 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Bradmore also does not distinguish between shapes of arrowheads like the Moroccan manuscript does. That supports the idea that British war arrows usually had two-bladed barbed heads in 1403, like the French treatise from 1446 describes French arrows (et les fers ? deux tranchans en forme de barbeleure). Spikes would be easier to remove.
It would be good to know when crossbow bolts start to get called quarrels for their square (carr?) heads.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Sun 16 Nov, 2025 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | John Bradmore describes how Prince Henry was wounded in the face with an arrow at the Battle of Shrewsbury: "the schaft' wase takyn owt and the hede ther of a bod styll' in the hyndyr parte of a bone of the hede after the mesur' of vj ynche" (Ralph Moffat, Medieval Arms and armour: A Sourcebook volume 2)
On first reading I think he means "the shaft was taken out and the head of a bod remained in a bone at the rear part of the skull to the depth of six inches." Is bod another arrow term? In his glossary Moffat suggests a bod is a form of abode "stayed" so the key phrase would be "the head of it (the hede ther of) remained still (a bod styll) in ... a bone of the head."
He also has examples of whole sheaves of darts like sheaves of arrows or bolts (so they were tied in bundles with a cord or belt). |
Well, 'bodkin" is a diminutive with -kin suffix from some obscure "bod/bode/ boyd" or similar word, like "napkin" or "pumpkin". So perhaps there's base word preserved in this one source? Would be interesting.
| Quote: | | That was called "piking" and has no obvious relation to something being pointy. |
Middle English verb "piken" apparently had meaning of "removing material with sharp instrument" just like modern "to pick", it derives from "pick" as "sharp intrument. If "piking" a bow involved shortening the limbs, it would make sense.
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Sun 16 Nov, 2025 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Bartek Strojek wrote: | Well, 'bodkin" is a diminutive with -kin suffix from some obscure "bod/bode/ boyd" or similar word, like "napkin" or "pumpkin". So perhaps there's base word preserved in this one source? Would be interesting.
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Middle English Dictionary says the etymology of bodkin is unknown and the -kin might be a ghost of another word not a diminutive https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED5390/
Moffat's argument seems pretty good to me but I just started to read volume 2 of his book.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Mon 17 Nov, 2025 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Well, if we are speculating 
There are a set of words involving "bid" or similar meaning knife or dagger in the Middle Ages
English "bidow/bidowe", Welsh "bidag", Scots gaelic "biodag". These seem likely to be related, although the etymological connection has yet to be found. We know that bodkin in Middle English was primarily a narrow knife or awl. Is there perhaps a connection?
Anthony Clipsom
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Thu 27 Nov, 2025 7:15 am Post subject: |
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if bid/bod means sharp pointy thing, then bodkin meaning a needle or dagger makes sense. I also noticed that bidag, might be related to dagger. I read somewhere the first recorded use of dagger comes from Scotland.
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Sean Manning
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Sun 28 Dec, 2025 6:01 am Post subject: |
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The Arrows v Armour series does seem to suggest that the "plate cutter" - a recent coining - has been misunderstood. These arrows would appear better at tackling non-plate armours.
Anthony Clipsom
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Sun 28 Dec, 2025 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Maybe someone can sic a grad student on those big projectile-points Will S mentioned (prehistoric archaeologists often use generic terms like "projectile point"). Until then its people like him doing what they can between their day job and their care responsibilities.
Arrowheads from this period seem poorly published because nobody can name the metallurgical studies, finds from the battlefield of Towton, etc. after starley-whats-the-point They just say they have heard of them.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Sun 28 Dec, 2025 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | Sean doesn't give a date as to when his is reference comes from - perhaps that might be useful?
Incidentally, Will, I'm interested whether you think all the four sided "bodkin" arrows are actually crossbow quarrels or just some? And apologies to Pedro for drifting away from his original topic. |
Henry III's statute De forma pacis conservande from 1242 says
Omnes eciam alii qui possunt habere arcum et sagittas extra forestam habeant ; qui vero in foresta arcus et pilettos
"All others who are able to have them (but not rich enough that they need edged weapons) shall have a bow and arrows outside the forest: however, in a forest they should have bow and piles."
Perhaps piles were seen as less suitable for poaching although a four-sided head will go through a deer just as well as a broadhead.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Sun 28 Dec, 2025 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Funding I'm sure has a lot to do with why no more studies are published. David Starley, incidentally, lost his job at the Armouries and, although he freelanced for a while, gave it all up to become a landscape painter and, latterly, gallery owner.
https://davidstarleyartist.com/index.html
Anthony Clipsom
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Thu 01 Jan, 2026 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Pikeheads usually have square or triangular sections, but javelins and darts in late-medieval art usually have bladed heads. Both can pierce well, so I wonder why this is? Is it just that you want a throwing spear weighted forward, but a long thrusting spear weighted further back? Maybe Tod could get his track and field star back to throw some javelins with heads by Will S?
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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This is a standard topic