[Patrick Hastings]

Something that has bothered me a bit over the last couple years.
Occasionally we get people that have issues with there new swords. Sometimes this is blown out of proportion and the person just needs to have more realistic expectations, but most of the time people have legitimate complaints. I get the impression that society makes anyone in a specialty business like this to be automatically trying to “rip you off” or slip something past you. Hey that happens. Unfortunately it puts the consumer in a defensive posture that can be a real headache for those businesses that are trying there best to provide you with quality goods. There are some good people out there who are genuinely interested in providing you with quality swords. They are often upfront and realistic with marketing. Customer service is often very good since it is paramount for small business because shit happens. There is no way to guarantee that every order will be absolutely perfect in every way. So Customer service is a means to deal with that flawed or damaged item. My point is when you complain on the forum before even attempting to discuss it with the vendor you are circumventing the process that’s in place to help you get what you ordered. Secondly you put the vendor in a defensive posture since not only do they have to deal with the service issue, but also they have been publicly slammed. Complaint being legitimate or not, it’s a rude tactic to slam first ask them to fix it later. Lets face it its embarrassing to have shipped out a flawed item even if its something beyond your control. It’s damaging to your reputation and your honor. Wouldn’t it be nice if people would at least give the vendors a chance to save face before screaming Godzilla on Main Street?

When I want to return a broken lawnmower I don’t go to the public square and address a crowd of strangers telling them all about my problem. No I go to the place of purchase and say hey this lawnmower don’t work what are you going to do about it? If they don’t satisfy me I may then go to the public square and bitch them out. If they made it right I may go the public square and praise them. But I give them a chance to be honorable rather than backing them into a corner by putting the spotlight on them.
Ok end rant begin relax mode

[Thomas McDonald]

Agree 100% Patrick ....... until you give a business the chance to make good , on whatever the problem is, you've no right to bitch them out in public!

End of story , Mac

[J. Kevin Fox]

I, too, agree. Who, after all, can satisfy your complaint or remedy the problem? Not the audience. Give the seller a chance. There is plenty of time later for other steps.

[Scott Byler]

I think it is very shortsighted, if not downright stupid, to rant about a product that is not what you expected of it before you have given the maker a chance to make it right with you. It is most definitely a good way to make sure a maker/producer/dealer will *not* be very happy to have further dealings with the complaining party. I never can figure exactly what prompts those sort of 'pre-emptive' slams against vendors. Like I said, it seems like an unwise thing to do without first trying to work something amicable out privately... Anyway, it seems to me that it would be a common courtesy type thing, too. I don't like to deal with folks that won't share a little of that, myself. (I have, but won't be dealing with those types again as long as I have a say so in it, and it *is* their loss and not mine.)

[Amy Christensen-Waddell]

Just thought I'd add one thought from someone who provides CS... Folks going public with questions, concerns or problems is a frequent thing with the advent of the internet. We've seen it a few times in our 4 years. And actually, it's really not all that bad. When you're having an awful day, then yes, it' s annoying, but it's part of business. For the most part the annoyance is more internal - at the fact that the mistake or flaw happened in the first place - than it is with the customer. Most customers are just looking for a way to vent or gain opinions before they approach the seller. I think it can be beneficial for people to see other people's reactions to their situation, gain insight from folks who may have been in their same situation, as well as beneficial for others see how a seller reacts to a problem. I know as a consumer, I appreciate it. If I'd heard half the stories I've been hearing from friends re: a certain airline, I know I'd not have flown with them for our recent vacation -- it was awful, and I later learned that many have faced similar situations with them, with no happy outcomes. Could have saved an entire day of our trip as well as a lot of anger and frustration if I'd have talked with them first, and flown with a better airline.

Any reputable dealer of anything should not have an issue with people going public, as long as the outcome is also public. If someone pops on a forum with a complaint, then they should also come on to let those who are paying attention to it know that a remedy has happened, if it indeed has. As you've stated, nobody is perfect. Mistakes happen. It's part of being human. You can put up 10 quality fail safes for your company and still have mistakes get through. The only time it's unfair to go public is when the problem lays out there in the public eye, with no remedy or comment from the other side. Geez, just think of what all of those celebrities have to deal with in the Enquirer and the Star. And they have no way of saying, "But I didn't do that!" *chuckle*

There are indeed customers out there who can never be satisfied. And those often go public. But I think as long as both sides are seen (be it by a seller also being public, or by the customer informing people of the remedy), then people can make their own judgements as to the situation, and whether or not they'd want to work with that seller in the future.

I think it's great that you all have such a distaste for it, and I can understand (and appreciate) your point of view. But in case you're concerned that this kind of thing is tough on the sellers, I hope this will help quell that fear. Hey, life isn't all roses and cherries... As long as it winds up that way in the end however, as you dig through the icky stuff, then it's all good...


My two cents...
Amy

[Keith Larman]

Just to add to the conversation...

Customer service is one of those things that really has taken a hit in the internet age. It is a double-edge sword too (pardon the allusion) because while the internet has allowed a lot of low cost vendors to appear, generally they cannot survive as low cost vendors precisely because they can't afford to do customer service. One or two bad experiences, a few returns, and pretty much the whole world knows the customer service stinks and since the vendor was running on such a low margin to begin with, well, they can't survive. The internet has made it easy for most anyone to start up. Unfortunately for them it didn't rewrite the rules of good business. And most seem to fail if they can't adapt and "grow up" into being a real business.

The irony of it all is that the low cost vendors with no customer service that don't make it end up setting the price expectations for a lot of people. People see that sword X is $500 on this site (really a guy working from home and drop shipping swords) and wonder why the next is selling it for $700. Well, maybe the site selling it for $700 is a brick and mortar business, they inspect their swords, they clean them up, the fix things, then they support them later. They'll still be there in 6 months. Or a year. And they have the resources to support the piece.

To me the internet has become much like a giant swap meet. Lots of bargains if you can find them. But don't forget that sometimes when you go that route you're buying something from someone who is not a professional, not a business, not going to be there in a year, and you shouldn't expect much for what you spend.

Then add to that the overwhelming power of forums on the internet for a customer to scream loud and clear. Even if they didn't bother to see if the vendor would be able to address their problem.

It is interesting for me as a guy at least peripherally associated with Bugei. I was down there inspection and doing the quality control along with Ted a few weeks ago. Going through each and every Bugei exclusive hanwei sword. Fixing things, adjusting this, tightening that, honing edges, that kind of stuff. Even rejecting a few. While we were there a fella dropped by Bugei's storefront with a hanwei blade he purchased elsewhere. He asked some questions which Ted answered. He asked about the edge of the sword he had brought in (again, not a bugei sword, not bought from bugei, etc.). So Ted took it, cleaned it up, honed it out, and showed the fella how he could do it himself if he wanted to in the future. No charge. Taking time away from the task at hand for Bugei, for a sword not made by Bugei, for a sword not purchased from Bugei. And they have their own forum where we answer questions. Try to teach people things. Try to help them understand the finer points. And many of those there take that knowlege and buy elsewhere, cheaper, from someone selling low cost because they don't have overhead. Guys like Ted doing quality control (often with my help because it takes a long time to do it right), guys like me answering questions, guys like James testing swords to destruction to make them better the next time, guys like Tony Alvarez *really* testing swords... etc. etc.

But I'm not complaining about it. It is just an odd world in many ways. The few who do the work, who do the customer service, who answer the questions, who hire people who know what they're doing end up doing those things for so many others who don't bother to do the work. And then occasionally I'll read comments on other sites alluding to how the bigger ones sell them for too much... Yup, because we're hand holding many of their customers for them.

I have no answers and I really don't have any suggestions. I just wonder how many people really realize what they're doing when they go to the mall cutlery store to handle 5 different pocket knives. Ask questions. Put their fingerprints on them all. Then write down the name of the one they like so they can go home and order it from the guy selling them at a lower price from his garage. Because he can charge a lower price because he doesn't bother with customer service, he doesn't have a display case, he doesn't have to wipe off fingerprints. And you'll notice how few cutlery stores there are nowadays compared to just 5 years ago. A dying market. Pretty soon you won't be able to see any of these things in person. You won't be able to handle any. You won't have anyone to ask questions of. And quality control will really mean just keep returning them until you get a good one.

Okay, now I'm depressed...

Just my morning rant... I'd better go polish something...

[Patrick Hastings]

[Patrick Hastings]

[Keith Larman]

Yeah, I can relate. We all do that to some extent. The big boys have to be more flexible and really do have to offer more help in order to compete with those low price guys. It is an evolution in the way things are sold. But that said there are huge differences between some products, books, CD's, whatever and things like swords and knives. The big on-line retailing model works quite well for some things. Guys like BestBuy compete quite well with good stock, good prices, lots of help, lots of selection. Heck, I *love* going to best buy just to look at the gorgeous southern california girls who are there buying music and dvd's... Yes, I love southern california... I maybe married, but I'm not blind. Wow...

But with swords and stuff like that, there is such a major "bond" when you get to handle them. When you can feel them. When you can look up and down to see what they're really like.

And with books there is sometimes the same thing. I feel that if I go to a store to find a book because I want to look it over and see what its all about, I'll buy it there if I like it. I'm paying for the floorspace, time, etc. If its just a book I already know I'll do a quick order on-line.

Complex problem, neh?

[Amy Christensen-Waddell]

[Jim Lindsey]

There are some really good points and words of wisdom being spoken here and I would like to add my own agreements. My own philosophy, on those rare occasions when I get something that is damaged or definitely flawed, is to contact the merchant and let them know, in a very courteous and friendly manner, that the item is damaged or flawed. I always like to communicate with the merchant in a way that conveys an air of ease, understanding and a kind & patient manner. It's been my experience in every situation that a kind and friendly manner sets the merchant at ease and I've yet to see a merchant who wouldn't bend over backwards to make things right when they are approached with kindness regarding an order that somehow runs afoul. The mistake is corrected and no harm done, everyone is happy.

For sure, one of the marks of a great company is not only the one that has good quality assurance, it's also one that'll bend over backwards to make something right when it's wrong ... however, it's a two way street --- the consumer should be patient and understanding as well. I think the mark of a great consumer is one who, if an order does go wrong, approaches the merchant with understanding, courtesy and patience when requesting an exchange or return. I loved Patrick's analogy of the broken lawnmower and I agree 100%.

I also agree that it's wise to sometimes check the reality of expectations when waiting for something like a sword to arrive. I have, on occasion, seen friends get a sword they ordered and then become disappointed because it doesn't meet up with what they were expecting, yet the item itself will be undamaged, flawless and usually very beautiful. I often wonder if sometimes the fault that a product doesn't always meet with our expectations is our own as consumers. I believe it's possible that in our excitement and anticipation, while waiting for an item to arrive, if we're not careful we can end up imaginatively embellishing it to the point that our expectations exceed what the product could ever possibly be like in real life. That is why (to always be truly fair toward both the item and the merchant it comes from), I've developed and followed what I think is a pretty good habit over the last twenty years or so ... before I ever open a package when it arrives (especially if it is a specialty item like a sword), I like to stop and weigh my own expectations in the balances ... are my expectations still realistic or have I allowed myself to embellish it into something more grand than what it really is? By always doing a little self-check like this, I seldom ever suffer disappointed because I've been able to keep my expectations realistic; more often than not, I usually find that the item far exceeds my expectations.

[Keith Kipferl]

[Keith Kipferl]

[James L]

Hello Everyone... a very intersting discussion... a note on the original question about those whom take to the
forums for flaming before discussing a problem properly with the maker or seller.

I believe that mostly there are alot of young and immature people who preform this act... it is not the action of a rational and mature adult , I think this explanation about covers it for most whom do this. Its just ..rude.hotheaded immature irrational behavior. period.
.. weve had several generations of failure to teach manners...citizenship...and social graces to our youth in this country..at home...and at school....and this is the type of reward that we reap for it..
50 years ago... you would never had a young person act that way....it was unheard of...and unaccecptable...
Guess this stuff just makes me feel old....
Jim