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Ryan S.
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 Posted: Mon 02 Jan, 2023 5:05 am Post subject: Horn or Wood crossbow? |
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Mike Loades believes the following picture depicts a yew crossbow, because yew has knots. However, I think it is a horn bow, because it reminds me of how horns (such as ibex horns) are depicted in heraldry. What is your opinion?
Ibex horn:
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Mon 02 Jan, 2023 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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It depends in part on how to scale the drawing is. The impression is the arms are over a metre, maybe 1.5m. I'm not too knowledgeable about Ibex, but I don't think their horns are that big.
Anthony Clipsom
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | | It depends in part on how to scale the drawing is. The impression is the arms are over a metre, maybe 1.5m. I'm not too knowledgeable about Ibex, but I don't think their horns are that big. |
I want to say that there are some extant giant horn crossbows that are about 3 meters. They aren't made from a single piece of horn. In fact, I don’t think any crossbow is made from a single piece of horn, or two horns put together. Rather, the image is meant to be symbolic and an artistic convention, at least I think so. Similar to how squirrel fur or ermine lining was depicted. Loades gave the impression that the only evidence for giant wood crossbows was this picture.
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: |
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Have you checked the book Springalds and Great Crossbows? It has lots of documents on big crossbows like this, and Loades might have overlooked it because he is more a 'making and experiencing' person than a 'deep dives in archives' person. A document which says "a great crossbow of yew and two petriers" is easier to interpret than a painting.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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T. Kew
Location: London, UK Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryan S. wrote: | | Rather, the image is meant to be symbolic and an artistic convention, at least I think so. Similar to how squirrel fur or ermine lining was depicted. |
In which case, I think an obvious question would be "do other crossbows in art show this same convention regularly?" I can't recall seeing it much offhand, and we know lots of crossbows were made from horn (as a composite with other materials), so I'm skeptical at treating it as an artistic convention for 'crossbow made from horn' without some further backing for the existence of that convention.
HEMA fencer and coach, New Cross Historical Fencing
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Tue 03 Jan, 2023 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Although that just raises the question "if its meant to show knobby yew, why isn't that convention more commonn?" Both the yew theory and the horn theory seem plausible ways of interpreting the art which is why I recommend looking at what the texts say.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Wed 04 Jan, 2023 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Mike Loades believes the following picture depicts a yew crossbow, because yew has knots. |
Just to be clear, having checked back in Loades' book, what he actually says is that the knobbly effect indicates the lath is made of wood. He doesn't specify yew nor attribute the knobbliness to knots. What exactly is indicated by the lumpy nature is less than clear because it is pretty rare to show bows and crossbows this way. The idea it represents Ibex horn in a abstract way is possible but it may just indicate that the weapon was roughly finished or, as Loades interprets, it contrasts the smooth finished appearance of a composite weapon.
Anthony Clipsom
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jan, 2023 12:48 am Post subject: |
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I've had a quick look at the background of the original image, which is from Walter of Milemete, Liber de nobilitatibus, sapientiis et prudentiis regum; England (London), 1326–1327
Milemete seems to normally show bows and crossbows with knobbly arms. Take for example
In this case, the two-colour finish may indeed imply yew.
He also applied the same effect to ordinary bows and crossbows e.g.
https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/b4d2880c-6267-4ad1-923b-fa323c58052b/surfaces/1eff82cd-7881-4314-8b78-e13a8b7a3755/
It's not conclusive but perhaps makes it less likely he intended some stylised reference to horn.
Anthony Clipsom
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Thu 05 Jan, 2023 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | | Have you checked the book Springalds and Great Crossbows? It has lots of documents on big crossbows like this, and Loades might have overlooked it because he is more a 'making and experiencing' person than a 'deep dives in archives' person. A document which says "a great crossbow of yew and two petriers" is easier to interpret than a painting. |
Loades mentions it in his book, and is his source on great crossbows (I think that is why he uses the term great crossbow instead of rampant crossbow).
| Anthony Clipsom wrote: |
Just to be clear, having checked back in Loades' book, what he actually says is that the knobbly effect indicates the lath is made of wood. He doesn't specify yew nor attribute the knobbliness to knots. What exactly is indicated by the lumpy nature is less than clear because it is pretty rare to show bows and crossbows this way. The idea it represents Ibex horn in a abstract way is possible but it may just indicate that the weapon was roughly finished or, as Loades interprets, it contrasts the smooth finished appearance of a composite weapon. |
Thanks for checking, I don´t have the book. I am pretty sure if it is wood it is yew, because yew is known to be knotty and other woods for crossbows are rare, and I believe, are not known in Europe.
I tried looking for the section in the book with a preview and found a reference to wooden crossbows in Berkhamsted and Glasgow. The back is knotty and the belly smooth. It is not as knotty as the illustration, but neither are horn bows. Here is a picture:
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This is a standard topic