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Martin Kallander
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 Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 3:24 am Post subject: How acurate is this osprey knight? |
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I'm assuming this drawing is based on the Saint Maurice statue in Magdenburg, is this the case? I think that the drawing's coat of plates is a lot prettier than Saint Maurice's, so I'm hoping it isn't an inaccurate rendition of his' armour but is instead historically authentic.
Thanks in advance, Martin!
 
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Matthew Amt
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Well, the details in the reconstruction don't seem to match that effigy. Similarities, sure, but the model might have been one of the "Sleeping Guard" depictions or something else. (I don't remember seeing coats of plates like that in Maciejowski.) Ospreys usually say what their color plates are based on, often with photos or drawings of the source material. I'd be curious to see why there are buckles at the wrist of the acketon, for instance, though it's been a long time since I studied 13th century stuff.
Matthew
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Martin Kallander
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Amt wrote: | Well, the details in the reconstruction don't seem to match that effigy. Similarities, sure, but the model might have been one of the "Sleeping Guard" depictions or something else. (I don't remember seeing coats of plates like that in Maciejowski.) Ospreys usually say what their color plates are based on, often with photos or drawings of the source material. I'd be curious to see why there are buckles at the wrist of the acketon, for instance, though it's been a long time since I studied 13th century stuff.
Matthew |
Thank you, I was not aware of the sleeping guard, it does look much more if not exactly like the Osprey recreation! As for the buckles, yes those do look suspect but that is not a detail I am overly concerned about at the moment at least.
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: Re: How acurate is this osprey knight? |
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| Martin Kallander wrote: | | I'm assuming this drawing is based on the Saint Maurice statue in Magdenburg, is this the case? |
Flip to the description of that plate in the book. What does it say specific objects are based on? Look up the artist, does he have any known quirks like Angus McBride dd?
Plates in Osprey books are part of a book. To interpret them you need information from the rest of the book.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Martin Kallander
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 8:47 am Post subject: Re: How acurate is this osprey knight? |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | | Martin Kallander wrote: | | I'm assuming this drawing is based on the Saint Maurice statue in Magdenburg, is this the case? |
Flip to the description of that plate in the book. What does it say specific objects are based on? Look up the artist, does he have any known quirks like Angus McBride dd?
Plates in Osprey books are part of a book. To interpret them you need information from the rest of the book. |
Sorry I do not own any Osprey books, I looked up this image online. If I remember correctly then there is a book in my local library with this image in it and if that is the Osprey in question then I can go and take a look later!
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Sean Manning
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Victor R.
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Martin Kallander wrote: | | Matthew Amt wrote: | Well, the details in the reconstruction don't seem to match that effigy. Similarities, sure, but the model might have been one of the "Sleeping Guard" depictions or something else. (I don't remember seeing coats of plates like that in Maciejowski.) Ospreys usually say what their color plates are based on, often with photos or drawings of the source material. I'd be curious to see why there are buckles at the wrist of the acketon, for instance, though it's been a long time since I studied 13th century stuff.
Matthew |
Thank you, I was not aware of the sleeping guard, it does look much more if not exactly like the Osprey recreation! As for the buckles, yes those do look suspect but that is not a detail I am overly concerned about at the moment at least.
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The buckles, or some form of closure like lacing, don't really surprise or offend me. You'd want a way to snug up the aketon at the wrist to keep it in place, particularly with maille over the top. If it were loose it could ride up, leaving you less protected and subject to some serious chaffing. 
They had the technology, and someone achieving knighthood would likely have the wherewithal to afford a custom aketon with proper fit and closure options.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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This is the "sleeping guard" reliquary from the Wienhausen Monastery.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2022 12:38 am Post subject: |
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I suspect this image , from Norman and Pottinger English Weapons and Warfare 449-1660, was influential in the reconstruction. However, the coat of plates here does seem to be directly based on the St Maurice, whereas Graham Turner's picture seems to be a composite.
Anthony Clipsom
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2022 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Victor R. wrote: | | The buckles, or some form of closure like lacing, don't really surprise or offend me. You'd want a way to snug up the aketon at the wrist to keep it in place, particularly with maille over the top. If it were loose it could ride up, leaving you less protected and subject to some serious chaffing. |
"Medieval-ish" garments tend to replace buttoned closures with straps and buckles, maybe those are cheaper to make with modern tools. The common ways of closing garments at the wrist in the 13th century were with buttons, pins, brooches, and laces. I have seen one effigy from the early 1300s where the buttons at the wrist are clearly marked, I have never seen straps there in art before 1990.
weekly writing ~ material culture
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 28 Oct, 2022 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the back of the Magdeburg St. Maurice.
 Attachment: 16.69 KB
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer
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Graham Shearlaw
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| Posted: Wed 16 Nov, 2022 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | | Victor R. wrote: | | The buckles, or some form of closure like lacing, don't really surprise or offend me. You'd want a way to snug up the aketon at the wrist to keep it in place, particularly with maille over the top. If it were loose it could ride up, leaving you less protected and subject to some serious chaffing. |
"Medieval-ish" garments tend to replace buttoned closures with straps and buckles, maybe those are cheaper to make with modern tools. The common ways of closing garments at the wrist in the 13th century were with buttons, pins, brooches, and laces. I have seen one effigy from the early 1300s where the buttons at the wrist are clearly marked, I have never seen straps there in art before 1990. |
Adding extra buckles is an easy way to make things "Medieval" or fantastical, just like leather arm guards an fur.
In terms of armour we do have a lot of armour buckles and other buckles from the wisbys finds, at least some where used on armour like pictured.
Note that there armour or belt buckles, and its a limited window there's no surviving fabric, any cloth or horn buttons have simply rotted away.
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