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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 3:24 am    Post subject: How acurate is this osprey knight?         Reply with quote

I'm assuming this drawing is based on the Saint Maurice statue in Magdenburg, is this the case? I think that the drawing's coat of plates is a lot prettier than Saint Maurice's, so I'm hoping it isn't an inaccurate rendition of his' armour but is instead historically authentic.

Thanks in advance, Martin!
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,444

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 3:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the details in the reconstruction don't seem to match that effigy. Similarities, sure, but the model might have been one of the "Sleeping Guard" depictions or something else. (I don't remember seeing coats of plates like that in Maciejowski.) Ospreys usually say what their color plates are based on, often with photos or drawings of the source material. I'd be curious to see why there are buckles at the wrist of the acketon, for instance, though it's been a long time since I studied 13th century stuff.

Matthew
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 6:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Well, the details in the reconstruction don't seem to match that effigy. Similarities, sure, but the model might have been one of the "Sleeping Guard" depictions or something else. (I don't remember seeing coats of plates like that in Maciejowski.) Ospreys usually say what their color plates are based on, often with photos or drawings of the source material. I'd be curious to see why there are buckles at the wrist of the acketon, for instance, though it's been a long time since I studied 13th century stuff.

Matthew

Thank you, I was not aware of the sleeping guard, it does look much more if not exactly like the Osprey recreation! As for the buckles, yes those do look suspect but that is not a detail I am overly concerned about at the moment at least.

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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 779

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: How acurate is this osprey knight?         Reply with quote

Martin Kallander wrote:
I'm assuming this drawing is based on the Saint Maurice statue in Magdenburg, is this the case?

Flip to the description of that plate in the book. What does it say specific objects are based on? Look up the artist, does he have any known quirks like Angus McBride dd?

Plates in Osprey books are part of a book. To interpret them you need information from the rest of the book.

www.bookandsword.com
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Martin Kallander




Location: Sweden
Joined: 25 Sep 2018

Posts: 102

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: How acurate is this osprey knight?         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Martin Kallander wrote:
I'm assuming this drawing is based on the Saint Maurice statue in Magdenburg, is this the case?

Flip to the description of that plate in the book. What does it say specific objects are based on? Look up the artist, does he have any known quirks like Angus McBride dd?

Plates in Osprey books are part of a book. To interpret them you need information from the rest of the book.

Sorry I do not own any Osprey books, I looked up this image online. If I remember correctly then there is a book in my local library with this image in it and if that is the Osprey in question then I can go and take a look later!
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 779

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And if your library doesn't have a copy, new Osprey books can be delivered for less than two hours' minimum wage in any rich country.

If its Warrior #124 by David Nicolle, he usually has good notes on the sources he gave the artist https://ospreypublishing.com/teutonic-knight-pb

www.bookandsword.com
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Victor R.




Location: Klein, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 322

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 11:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Kallander wrote:
Matthew Amt wrote:
Well, the details in the reconstruction don't seem to match that effigy. Similarities, sure, but the model might have been one of the "Sleeping Guard" depictions or something else. (I don't remember seeing coats of plates like that in Maciejowski.) Ospreys usually say what their color plates are based on, often with photos or drawings of the source material. I'd be curious to see why there are buckles at the wrist of the acketon, for instance, though it's been a long time since I studied 13th century stuff.

Matthew

Thank you, I was not aware of the sleeping guard, it does look much more if not exactly like the Osprey recreation! As for the buckles, yes those do look suspect but that is not a detail I am overly concerned about at the moment at least.



The buckles, or some form of closure like lacing, don't really surprise or offend me. You'd want a way to snug up the aketon at the wrist to keep it in place, particularly with maille over the top. If it were loose it could ride up, leaving you less protected and subject to some serious chaffing. Wink

They had the technology, and someone achieving knighthood would likely have the wherewithal to afford a custom aketon with proper fit and closure options.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,613

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2022 11:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the "sleeping guard" reliquary from the Wienhausen Monastery.


Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 261

PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2022 12:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect this image , from Norman and Pottinger English Weapons and Warfare 449-1660, was influential in the reconstruction. However, the coat of plates here does seem to be directly based on the St Maurice, whereas Graham Turner's picture seems to be a composite.

Anthony Clipsom
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 779

PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2022 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
The buckles, or some form of closure like lacing, don't really surprise or offend me. You'd want a way to snug up the aketon at the wrist to keep it in place, particularly with maille over the top. If it were loose it could ride up, leaving you less protected and subject to some serious chaffing. Wink

"Medieval-ish" garments tend to replace buttoned closures with straps and buckles, maybe those are cheaper to make with modern tools. The common ways of closing garments at the wrist in the 13th century were with buttons, pins, brooches, and laces. I have seen one effigy from the early 1300s where the buttons at the wrist are clearly marked, I have never seen straps there in art before 1990.

www.bookandsword.com
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,301

PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2022 6:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the back of the Magdeburg St. Maurice.


 Attachment: 16.69 KB
101ee1bf2deb2951a5ab55580f056b9c.jpg


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,301

PostPosted: Sat 29 Oct, 2022 5:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unfortunately, the statue is now displayed backed against a wall. Otherwise, detailed pictures are available here.
https://supernaut.info/2016/03/dom-zu-magdeburg-st-mauritius-und-katharina

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Graham Shearlaw





Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 141

PostPosted: Wed 16 Nov, 2022 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Victor R. wrote:
The buckles, or some form of closure like lacing, don't really surprise or offend me. You'd want a way to snug up the aketon at the wrist to keep it in place, particularly with maille over the top. If it were loose it could ride up, leaving you less protected and subject to some serious chaffing. Wink

"Medieval-ish" garments tend to replace buttoned closures with straps and buckles, maybe those are cheaper to make with modern tools. The common ways of closing garments at the wrist in the 13th century were with buttons, pins, brooches, and laces. I have seen one effigy from the early 1300s where the buttons at the wrist are clearly marked, I have never seen straps there in art before 1990.


Adding extra buckles is an easy way to make things "Medieval" or fantastical, just like leather arm guards an fur.

In terms of armour we do have a lot of armour buckles and other buckles from the wisbys finds, at least some where used on armour like pictured.

Note that there armour or belt buckles, and its a limited window there's no surviving fabric, any cloth or horn buttons have simply rotted away.
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