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David Knupp
Location: Florida Joined: 19 Oct 2016
Posts: 18
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 Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2022 8:35 am Post subject: Questions on European cavalry lance evolution and use |
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I've been trying to research the evolution of the European cavalry lance and can find very little. I'm trying to find out when they first started to use lances with the swollen base and vamplates. Also, were those just features of a jousting lance or did that style of lance see use on the battlefield?
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Wed 28 Sep, 2022 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I can't think of articles offhand but look up the rest (arrêt, really a "stop") of the cuirass (classic article in French by François Buttin), Toby Capwell's discussion of the difference between a lance and a lancegay (same word as Assagay!) ) or javelin in Armour of the English Knight Vol. 1, and Will McLean's essay on Lance Construction from 2011. Lancegay and javelin were the 15th and 16th century English names for the type of lance used before the introduction of the lance rest and grapper.
I think steel vamplates were a safety feature for jousting lances, but heavy war lances in the 15th century often had a swollen part before the handgrip which served a similar function of keeping points and splinters out of the top of the gauntlet.
www.bookandsword.com
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2022 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Though not a full answer, the evolution can be seen to have started by the early 14th century . The Codex Manesse shows a basic vamplate and grapper in use on some tournament lances, though the lance itself is still parallel sided.
Anthony Clipsom
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T. Kew
Location: London, UK Joined: 21 Apr 2012
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2022 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Questions on European cavalry lance evolution and use |
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| David Knupp wrote: | | Also, were those just features of a jousting lance or did that style of lance see use on the battlefield? |
While I haven't seen a vamplate specifically, the swollen shape of the lance around the grip area shows up a lot in paintings and woodcuts. There are numerous examples in "Landsknechts on Campaign" (McNealy / Geisberg), e.g. Hans Springinklee's 1515 Conquest of Stuhlweissenburg in Hungary. Another nice example is Durer's famous Paumgartner altarpiece - both lances here show some swelling and a plate on the butt to rest in the arret.
HEMA fencer and coach, New Cross Historical Fencing
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu 29 Sep, 2022 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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I've had a bit of an image search and the earliest definite example of the tapered and shaped lance I could find is this one from Germany c 1444
Couple of interesting things about this effigy. One is the old fashioned helmet and aventail. The other is if you compare the image on wikipedia of this effigy, you'll see the erosion damage it has suffered in the last 100 years. The inscription is largely gone on the left of the picture and the lance is badly damaged (the top has gone completely).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Kloster_Eberbach_Basilika_Grabplatte_57.JPG
Add : Though I note that Ucello's San Romano pictures are now dated to the beginning of 1440s, which may have saved me some searching.
Anthony Clipsom
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Fri 30 Sep, 2022 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | | I've had a bit of an image search and the earliest definite example of the tapered and shaped lance I could find is this one from Germany c 1444 |
Although just to be perfectly clear, most traditional spears are tapered or barrel-shaped. The big difference with those heavy cavalry lances is that they are so thick and so aggressively shaped that the shape is visible to a casual glance in a small picture (eg. the striking part is much too thick to hold so the grip is visibly thinner).
Kelly de Vries' history of medieval military technology might have something.
www.bookandsword.com
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Fri 30 Sep, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Fair point
| Quote: | | The big difference with those heavy cavalry lances is that they are so thick and so aggressively shaped that the shape is visible to a casual glance in a small picture (eg. the striking part is much too thick to hold so the grip is visibly thinner). |
Yes, although this became more exaggerated. I think they are already quite obvious in the Rout of San Romano pictures, though.
Another 1440-ish example, showing what are clearly tournament lances, Tournament in the square of Santa Croce, Florence by Apollonio di Giovanni is worth a look .
https://view.collections.yale.edu/m3/?manifest=https%3A//manifests.collections.yale.edu/yuag/obj/290
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Kelly de Vries' history of medieval military technology might have something. |
Sadly not - very vague, I'm afraid.
Anthony Clipsom
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Sat 01 Oct, 2022 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | Though not a full answer, the evolution can be seen to have started by the early 14th century . The Codex Manesse shows a basic vamplate and grapper in use on some tournament lances, though the lance itself is still parallel sided.
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What is that women doing? is she giving him the lance, or did she take it away?
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Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Sat 01 Oct, 2022 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Alas, this is a picture whose subject is not certainly identified. It was discussed briefly on the forum here
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.7168.html
But this was mainly about translation . So, if there is any story behind the picture, it is hard to pull out.
Incidentally, looking at this again, the knight with the bell frame is interesting. His horse appears to have perhaps leather armour on the head, kneck and chest. The rider's leg armour is also interesting - cuir bouilli perhaps?
Anthony Clipsom
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Ryan S.
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| Posted: Mon 03 Oct, 2022 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | Alas, this is a picture whose subject is not certainly identified. It was discussed briefly on the forum here
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.7168.html
But this was mainly about translation . So, if there is any story behind the picture, it is hard to pull out.
Incidentally, looking at this again, the knight with the bell frame is interesting. His horse appears to have perhaps leather armour on the head, kneck and chest. The rider's leg armour is also interesting - cuir bouilli perhaps? |
Thanks, the link helped me find the name. It is an interesting the poet is supposed to be non-noble, but is depicted in a joust. A summary I found of the poem, doesnt offer any obvious hint, but it does end with the poet in doubt about his lady.
I find the whatever the Bell Knight´s horse is wearing unusual. It is very low contrast, and therefore poor decoration. But that might be the artist's intent. The focus is on the Lady and the Red Knight. The Bell Knight also has a little brown above the knee. Maybe he has a mail knee cap?
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This is a standard topic