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Dan Kary
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 Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2022 7:15 am Post subject: Shamshir hilts |
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Hi everybody,
I am wondering about shamshirs in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century. I'm wondering how different they are from more modern shamshirs. I have three questions.
1) Were the blades different significantly or have they had stasis? I have heard that they used to have a significantly less aggressive curve.
2) Did hilts change much? I know that there is a huge variety of hilts - Persian, Turkish, Syrian, Indian, etc*. but was there much change within these?
*I'm assuming that the shamshir actually existed in all these places in the mid-15th century to mid-16th century...I'm not actually sure that's right though.
Basically, is there a way to date a shamshir just by looking at the design of it (in the way you can figure out, roughly, where it is from based on the design)?
3) Is there a good resource of artwork/examples of shamshirs from the mid-15th century to mid-16th century?
Thank you!
Dan
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David Lewis Smith
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2022 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Shamshirs date back to the 12th century though some will push it back to the 9th century pointing to the Mongols. Blade shape as far as curve to me is about the same, some being deeper, some being shollower but not by a lot.
To your last question google image search will come up with some very nice historical pieces and you can search by century
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2022 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| David Lewis Smith wrote: | | Shamshirs date back to the 12th century though some will push it back to the 9th century pointing to the Mongols. Blade shape as far as curve to me is about the same, some being deeper, some being shollower but not by a lot. |
As far as I can recall Manouchehr Khorasani's Arms and Armour from Iran, the classic curved shamshir appears circa 1400 CE. Turks and Mongols did introduced single-edged curved swords into a region where swords were straight and normally two-edged, but the oldest "classical shamshir" he can find are two blades attributed to Timur (A&AfA ch. 8.2). I think I saw one in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg which they date around then.
Aside from Khorasani's book, the Met has a new book on Islamic Arms and Armour in the Metropolitan Museum of At (2015). I have not seen it but their catalogues are usually worth reading.
www.bookandsword.com
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Tue 15 Mar, 2022 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the posts! I just had a look through some the the Met's shamshirs and that was great fun. I wonder if anybody knows of any other museums with a good website presence and a significant number of shamshirs - in particular older ones. I'll have a look at the Hermitage as well.
As for googling...I'm ashamed to admit it but this isn't working for me. For example, if I google 15th century shamshir, I don't get much that actually matches what I am searching. I tried that earlier (before posting) and didn't come up with much...
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2022 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated.
One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts?
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Wed 16 Mar, 2022 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Kary wrote: | So I think I have a more narrow focus now after doing a bit of research. What I am looking for now is 15th century Mamluk hilts. Any leads on those would be much appreciated.
One other question that is popping up for me is that it looks like Mamluks also used the kilij (which I thought was a later Turkish invention). Regardless, throughout history, the hilts seem to be interchangeable. Is that right? Are there distinctly kilij vs. scimitar hilts? |
Aside from the Met and Dr. Khorasani, you could try asking Da'Mon Stith or the Historical African Martial Arts Association Good luck!
Shamshir is a Persian word for "sword", Kilij is a Turkish word for "sword".
www.bookandsword.com
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Thu 17 Mar, 2022 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Sean.
Maybe I should say a little more about why I am asking all this. I'm looking into getting a sword made and that book would cost almost as much as the sword. I've gotten in contact with Hamit over at Peserey Handicrafts (which has been recommended a couple times on these forums) and after some back and forth about what I am looking for, I think that a hilt like this one appeals to me (it was actually suggested by Hamit after I sent him one from the royal armouries):
https://i.etsystatic.com/icm/24ab44/432509243/icm_fullxfull.432509243_fobqiltjnlwg04kko4wc.jpg?version=0
It seems to have a few features that come up when looking at Mamluk hilts from that later era of the 15th-16th century. The one thing that is kind of causing me to pause is that I'm not really finding any blades on these sort of hilts that are classic Persian shamshir style curved blades. I'm more seeing slightly curved kilij style blades. So am wondering if slapping that hilt, with a curved shamshir blade is the dream of a madman because it isn't historically plausible...though I have seen some curvy blades (maybe not super curvy though) that come to a finer point in period art...I'm wondering if I need to re-think the project to include a kilij style blade instead. Or, maybe something with a gentler curve (something like you'd see on a Karabela).
This was a weird revelation to come to, if right. Because when you think of a "Mamluk" sword in the modern context, you think of something like a European interpretation of a Persian shamshir...
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David Lewis Smith
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| Posted: Thu 17 Mar, 2022 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Sean Manning wrote: | | David Lewis Smith wrote: | | Shamshirs date back to the 12th century though some will push it back to the 9th century pointing to the Mongols. Blade shape as far as curve to me is about the same, some being deeper, some being shollower but not by a lot. |
As far as I can recall Manouchehr Khorasani's Arms and Armour from Iran, the classic curved shamshir appears circa 1400 CE. Turks and Mongols did introduced single-edged curved swords into a region where swords were straight and normally two-edged, but the oldest "classical shamshir" he can find are two blades attributed to Timur (A&AfA ch. 8.2). I think I saw one in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg which they date around then.
Aside from Khorasani's book, the Met has a new book on Islamic Arms and Armour in the Metropolitan Museum of At (2015). I have not seen it but their catalogues are usually worth reading. |
Manouchehr was a friend, though I have not heard from him in ages. I am using shamshir in the generic curved way. I also do not think of a mongol sword as being a shamshir persay, just mentioning that as some include them. personally I think of the curved shamshir as a later weapon, or one used primarily against unarmored apponates. Metal armor in particular tends to defeat curved blades. I also think of them as for the most part lite and wicked sharp. There are others of heavier design, but the antiques I own are all fairly lite, and still sharp.
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Sean Manning
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| Posted: Sat 19 Mar, 2022 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| David Lewis Smith wrote: | | Manouchehr was a friend, though I have not heard from him in ages. I am using shamshir in the generic curved way. I also do not think of a mongol sword as being a shamshir persay, just mentioning that as some include them. personally I think of the curved shamshir as a later weapon, or one used primarily against unarmored apponates. Metal armor in particular tends to defeat curved blades. I also think of them as for the most part lite and wicked sharp. There are others of heavier design, but the antiques I own are all fairly lite, and still sharp. |
Sure, I don't want to get into semantics about what is basically a word for "sword," but if Dan is looking for the classic shamshir with a longish, single-edged, extremely curved blade, a crossguard and a straight handle with a bent end, I don't think he will find it before the late 14th century. The earlier Turkish and Mongol sabres are different types of sword.
A&AfI is explicitly on Iranian arms, but Khorasani is an expert and if Dan wrote to him he might be able to answer some of Dan's questions.
www.bookandsword.com
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Dan Kary
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| Posted: Sat 19 Mar, 2022 9:46 am Post subject: |
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I guess I should give an update. I have contacted everybody suggested: Manouchehr Khorasani, Da'Mon Stith, the Historical African Martial Arts Association, etc.
Basically I have summarized things in the following way: I am looking for a historically accurate, functional, curved sword replica from the Abbasid Caliphate/Mamluk Sultanate from roughly 1450-1520. We'll see what happens...I've also got a ton of books on a short list that might provide further insights.
Thanks everybody for the tips (keep them coming if you have them!). It has given me a way to narrow down what I am looking for in able to be more specific and also given me some leads. I hope that by the end of this process that I will have a nice contemporary counterpart to the normal 1450-1520 German/Swiss/English stuff I'm normally into!
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This is a standard topic