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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
Joined: 28 Feb 2018

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sun 21 Feb, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to sidetrack the topic for just a little bit if its not a problem.

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Flanged maces were very often brazed together during construction and this would be a devil to do with pre-heat treated parts and keep the treatment and a devil to do once it is assembled and for it to stay in one piece, so although I do not know for sure, I strongly suspect they were not treated and if they were, I would love to know how.

Tod


Hi Tod. Im researching medieval flanged mace production at the moment, since there isnt anything much to do these days other than research Big Grin

We can all agree that the flanges were brazed in place using copper or its alloys.

What I wanted to ask is, is there evidence that the pipes were forge welded, like the gun barrels of those times most certainly were?
Everybody told me that there was absolutely no evidence for that and that they were all brazed, just like the flanges.
I find that really odd. It would be easier to forge weld that length of seam than to braze it in my opinion.
The only thing that would explain brazing the handle would be the thickness of the material. If its too thin, it could burn through in the forge...
But that would then make it too weak for a weapon...
Maybe thats why they had wooden cores in, not just to reinforce, but to provide the bulk of the strength for the whole mace?

So, to answer your question on HT, if they could use a spirit blow lamp, like you talked about in another post, to braze the flanges to the handle and the handle itself, why wouldnt they use the same lamps to heat just the very tips of each flange, while keeping the rest of the mace submerged in water or otherwise cooled?
Then you can quench each flange spike separately, and then give it all a proper temper. All this if there was enough carbon for a successful hardening in the first place.
You coulld also do this in a regular charcoal fire, but a constant cooling of the pieces would be critical to success.
But still feasible.

P.S. Thats all I have to say regarding HT, dont know if they did it, but Im sure it could have been done very easily.
I want to get back to the process of brazing flanges again. Can you really do it with those primitive blowtorches you
mentioned,Tod? Or was there a different technique for maces?
Im asking because I need a reliable medieval technology of mace manufacture, I want to do a proper reconstruction
some thay when all of this blows over Happy
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Leo Todeschini
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Location: Oxford, UK
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb, 2021 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Danilo J wrote
Quote:
Can you really do it with those primitive blowtorches you
mentioned,Tod? Or was there a different technique for maces?


I may have mentioned blowtorches in previous posts, but that would be about jewellery rather than mace flanges. They couldn't be used for this purpose.

I have no idea if mace handles were forge welded, but I doubt it would be too much of a problem.

Brazing of large objects like this would be done in/over a fire.

Tod

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Danilo J




Location: Pirot, Serbia
Joined: 28 Feb 2018

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed 24 Feb, 2021 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I was afraid of that, thanks.
It seems like Im left with the other option. Do you know how exactly was this done?

Im not sure whether to wire wrap every flange in place, insert soldering wire in each junction, flux heavily and put everything in my charcoal forge, or to just put the steel parts, fluxed, and once theyre properly hot take them out and quickly bring some brass wire and go over the joints and braze them that way, one by one.

A potential problem for the first way is, will the flux leak out on the sides that are upside down or slanted?
Not sure if capillary action can hold everything in place.

The second way can lead to the piece cooling off before I go over all six flanges, making me have to heat things up again, which may undo my previous work and so on.

It seems like a lot of trial and error kind of job, and Ill take any help I can get Happy
Either way, Ill get back to you all if I manage to heat treat the thing when I successfully braze it.

Cheers.
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