| myArmoury.com is now completely member-supported. Please contribute to our efforts with a donation. Your donations will go towards updating our site, modernizing it, and keeping it viable long-term.
Last 10 Donors: Anonymous, Daniel Sullivan, Chad Arnow, Jonathan Dean, M. Oroszlany, Sam Arwas, Barry C. Hutchins, Dan Kary, Oskar Gessler, Dave Tonge (View All Donors) |
| Author |
Message |
|
John C. Dos Santos
Location: United States Joined: 29 May 2019
Posts: 9
|
 Posted: Tue 26 May, 2020 8:42 pm Post subject: Portuguese in Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold??? |
 |
|
Hello
I am trying to learn more about the activities, arms, and armour of Portuguese fighting men in the late 15th c.
Are there sources which mention Portuguese soldiers in Charles' army? Were they knights? Mercenaries? What arms and armour were they using? Did they have native weapons? Like slings or specific sword types?
Thank you,
John
|
|
  |
 |
|
Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
|
| Posted: Wed 27 May, 2020 1:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
In the 1476 army, there is mention of a company of 300 men-at-arms and mounted archers under Dom Denis of Portugal. These would be mercenaries, similar to the Italian, Spanish and English companies. As they are recorded as an ordonnance company, we can assume they were organised as one of those but with entirely or largely Portugese personnel.
Anthony Clipsom
|
|
|
|
|
|
Michael Zimmermann
|
| Posted: Wed 27 May, 2020 4:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Anthony is indeed correct. For further information you could do worse than getting your hands on the following volume:
Jacques Paviot: Portugal et Bourgogne au XVe siècle: 1384 - 1482. Recueil de documents extraits des archives bourguignonnes. Lisbon 1995.
I haven't read this myself, but the reviews are alright and there's much about primary sources to discover here.
As you can see from this table of contents (http://bvbr.bib-bvb.de:8991/exlibris/aleph/a2...IHKM45.pdf), it features a supplementary section on Portuguese personnel in the service of the Burgundian dukes.
On the financial side of things, there should be records of payments to troops and stipends for their leaders (as members of the ducal court). Consult the time frame of interest (unfortunately, due to events, the records for 1476 appear rather more basic than is usually the case). The ordonnance company in question, n° XX, came into being in 1475, if I recall correctly.
Hope this helps.
- Michael
|
|
|
|
|
|
John C. Dos Santos
Location: United States Joined: 29 May 2019
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Wed 27 May, 2020 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you for the information,
I cant read French. Have to find a translation.
When you talk about mounted archers, were they using recurve more eastern style bows?
Thank you
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anthony Clipsom
Location: YORKSHIRE, UK Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 342
|
| Posted: Thu 28 May, 2020 2:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John C. Dos Santos wrote: | Thank you for the information,
When you talk about mounted archers, were they using recurve more eastern style bows?
Thank you |
They are more likely to use crossbows, I think. I have very limited knowledge of Medieval Portugese forces but I don't remember much evidence of forces of ordinary bows, but crossbowmen, including mounted ones, feature.
Anthony Clipsom
|
|
|
|
|
Pedro Paulo Gaião
|
| Posted: Thu 28 May, 2020 6:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Anthony Clipsom wrote: | | John C. Dos Santos wrote: | Thank you for the information,
When you talk about mounted archers, were they using recurve more eastern style bows?
Thank you |
They are more likely to use crossbows, I think. I have very limited knowledge of Medieval Portugese forces but I don't remember much evidence of forces of ordinary bows, but crossbowmen, including mounted ones, feature. |
So, theoretically, there isn't any surviving evidence for longbow use in late medieval Portugal. Since the 12-13th centuries, the crossbow totally supplanted bow as the ranged-weapon.We have records of longbows at hundreds in Lisbon Royal Arsenal, but I think they were used to be sold to the English or to be given to them in the occasion of mercenary service. A Portuguese catalog of medieval pieces have a longbow in Alcacer do Sal castle, south Portugal.
Those mounted archers might likely to be mounted crossbowmen, and actually cavalry troops, not mounted infantry. The "Besteiros de Montada" was a class of cavalry crossbowmen created in King Joao I reign (late 14th to early 15th centuries), but as far as I know, they didn't seen to be numerous, but I might be wrong on that. The few references for military categories speak of "aquantiado em besta de garrucha" or "besta e cavalo" that requires horse, a type of loading compatible with mounted use and body armor. Horses itself were expensive as hell in Portugal, so I think this was cavalry rather that mounted infantry.
Regarding the subject of Portuguese in Charles the Bold army: King Afonso V was blood-related to Charles, cousin, I think. After Isabela gave a coup in Castile and used Aragon's forces to impose her rule (Afonso being the pretender from the other side), he tried to seek Charles' help against the Catholic Kings in the following war (he even married Henry IV's daughter, which was also his niece). Apparently, Charles traded troops for that, specially crossbowmen.
Portuguese Historians in general always point out that our crossbowmen were regarded as just as good as Genoa's ones, so in the later phases of Charles' war, he even asked for more crossbowmen to Afonso, but his appeals came to no avail, as no mercenary troops came.
Besides that, I think there is a small possibility that the Portuguese took part in the Black Army of Hungary and in many other foreign mercenary service. One of Joao I's sons went to adventures in Hungary after gathering a knightly host in Portugal and England, then proceeding to Venice and then to Hungary; according to the sources, the Black Army employed "Spaniards" but by that time this could mean any filiation in the Iberian Peninsula (like the 17th century Portuguese in Brazil calling the Dutch Calvinists as "flemish"). Portuguese and Spanish took part in mercenary service in Muslim African Kingdoms too, as just as the Black Legion of Landsknecht in the early 16th century included Spaniards and moors. Middle Ages were more culturally integrated that we could suppose. Take Jorg von Ehingen's experience at Ceuta under Portuguese patronage, or the Anglo-Gascon army at Aljubarrota (which wasn't exactly english-gascon, at least a single man-at-arms was from Florence)..
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic