Looking for proof about Mail -- myArmoury.com

Michael Garman · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 11:21 am Post subject: Looking for proof about Mail

I'm in the SCA and have been trying to find acceptable documentation to show the first usage of mail armor or any form of linking rings that would make up a sheet a "metal fabric" of any size. My belief is that it was in use before 300 AD and could been around as early as 800 BC. However there are members in our group that make the claim that mail in any form can only be dated back to 350 AD at the earliest. The information that I have gathered so far only offers "personal opinions" and "vague references" without proof to back it up.

What I am hoping for is the name of some books, some reputable web sites, or information on well documented archaeological dig sites that substantiate my claims.

Thanks for any information in this area,

Michael Garman

David R. Glier · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 11:36 am Post subject:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42144

Have you seen that topic recently???

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 12:56 pm Post subject:

I have nothing new to add that isn't in that thread. Mail was apparently developed in the Celtic regions of Europe. The earliest find dates to 5th C BC.

Erik D. Schmid · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject:

Michael,

Dan is correct. The earliest documentable mail was from a Celtic chieftans grave in Ciumesti, Romania and has been dated to around the 5th century BC. You can read about it here:

Rusu, M., “Das Keltisch Furstengrab von Ciumesti in Rumanien”, Germania 50, 1969, pp.267-269

In addition to that piece, there are quite a few to be found dating to around the 1st century AD. In the UK aone there are several examples of pre-Roman mail shirts. They are each quite stunning and have yielded a good deal of information.

I hope this helps you out. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Michael Garman · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject:

I have heard of stories of King David wearing mail in to battle and coats of mail being worn by a Pharaoh or two. However Ciumesti Romania yeilding 5BC mail is a lot better proof than what I had before, thanks.

I don't think the local library will have a copy of "Das Keltisch Furstengrab von Ciumesti in Rumanien" in stock, but I'm glad to know about it. Is there any web site that has pictures from that dig?

For myself this kind of information is good enough, but for the for the people in my local group they want first tier documentation. To go back to them and say "some guys on the internet said this" won't cut it. I can even toss out dates but again they are going to where did I get the dates from. I know this is a real pain, and I don't mean to question anyones research, but I'm looking for the source of the information. That book is a good place for me to start if I could ever find it and then translate it.

Does anyone else know of any other books or a Science base web site that might talk about this?

Again thanks for helping me with this.

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject:

The Victorian definition of mail was different to the medieval one and the one we use today. The Victorians used the word "mail" to describe any metal body armour including scale and plate armour. The most common example is Goliath wearing a bronze coat of mail.

There is some info here.
http://www.knights.arador.com/materials/chainmailandringmail.pdf

Regarding King David wearing mail. The evidence comes from Josephus, Book 5, Ch 7, Line 299
"He had a spear, the handle of which weighed three hundred shekels, and a breastplate of chain-work, and a sword."

The problem is that this work has been translated twice: from Aramaic into Greek and from Greek into English. The Greek version uses the phrase thôraka halusidôton which means something like "armour wrought in chain fashion." This sounds like mail to me but we don't know what Josephus actually wrote, only what the Greek translators wrote. It is also possible that Josephus is confusing armour worn during his own time with that worn during the time of David. There is also the fact that these stories are based on oral tradition and may have changed over the generations.

There is no supporting evidence to suggest that people during the time of David wore any metal armour except corselets of bronze or iron scale armour, or solid bronze cuirasses. There is nothing that even looks remotely like mail.

Erik D. Schmid · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 3:50 pm Post subject:

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 23 Feb, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject:

It is childishly simple to find evidence of mail dating before 300AD. The trick is pinning down when it was first used. Nobody who has done any research at all on this subject can reasonably claim that mail didn't exist before 350AD. On top of the extant examples mentioned by Erik there is a multitude of iconographical evidence.

This particular one dates to the first century BC.
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/a...e/MA1.html

This was the hamata found at Arbeia
http://www.romanhideout.com/images/UK/SouthSh...Hamata.jpg

How about Trajan's Column. Most sensible people acknowledge that it was commissioned before 300AD.

Greyson Brown · Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 3:16 am Post subject:

While not the main thrust of the book, Peter Connolly's Greece and Rome at War mentions a little bit on early mail usage. Not enough of it in there to justify buying the book for mail info, but worth a look if there is a handy library with a copy.

-Grey

Michael Garman · Posted: Thu 24 Feb, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject:

Another book referance and some pictures. This is great... Thanks. I had seen pictures of the Trajan's column before but didn't realize it had an example of mail in it. With this new information it should be fairly easy to convince those about the usage of early mail.

I found a site that I would like to get an opinion on. The address is http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/weapons/armour.htm and the passage in question is:

Dan Howard · Posted: Sat 26 Feb, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject:

Amelia Edwards is wrong. Ignore her. Just because she wrote a book doesn't mean she knows what she is talking about. Egyptians and other Near Eastern cultures of the time didn't wear any metal armour except scale armour. The armour to which Edwards is referring is probably similar to the attachment. It is believed that the coloured scales are painted rawhide and the yellow ones are bronze. It is easy to prove Edwards wrong. Get some mail and paint the links. Then see how long it takes for the paint to wear off. Ask Allina, I believe she was going to attempt this.

Nathan Cole · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 10:12 am Post subject: mail in biblical times

Dan Howard · Posted: Mon 14 Mar, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject:

The reason why the word "mail" is used so often is because the Victorian definition of mail was different to the one we use today. At the time "mail" meant any sort of metal body armour - not just armour made from interlinked rings. This includes scale and plate armour. A Victorian would see a word in Hebrew, Latin, or Greek that meant "body armour" (such as lorica and thoraka) and have no problem translating that as "mail." Today we would simply use "armour". When you see the word "mail" in many biblical translations if you substitute "armour," you will have fewer problems. The passage mentioned by Nathan, regarding Goliath, is an exception as the original word more closely translates as fish scales rather than body armour. But remember that Victorian scholars would refer to scale armour as "mail". Armour scholars of the time would make the distinction from other types of body armour but even they would call it "scale mail".