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Jonathan Dean




Location: Australia
Joined: 16 Feb 2019

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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jul, 2019 3:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Here is the translation for Wace: https://books.google.com/books?id=bV8EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA172#v=onepage&q&f=false Not sure how accurate it is.

Wace describing the Irish in Roman De Brut: "His men were naked to their adversaries, having neither helmets nor coats of leather nor shields."


The original text reads:

Quote:
Car si home furent trop nu, n'orent hauberc, n'orent escue, ne saietes ne quenuissoient, ne a arc trere ne savoient


From La Partie Arthurienne du Roman de Brut, ed. by IDO Arnold and MM Pelan, p72. The excerpt has it's own numbering of line, but gives the line numbers for the standard text in the top right corner, so in a full edition the lines would be between 9670 and 9708.

It looks like the original translator has assumed that the "hauberc" was leather.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 22 Jul, 2019 4:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Once again we see the problems with relying on translations.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2020 9:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Native Americans gluing sand to leather for armour: https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-Native-Americans-wear-leather-armour I would say this adds weight to the Ragnar story.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2020 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting stuff Len. Using glue mixed with sand to stick layers of leather together to make armour, reminds me of this quote I found a couple of years ago on the armour archive;

"Take lether that ys half tannyd and drye hym, and schave the flesshe syd; and take glwe wt water, and set yt over the fyere, and melte yt wt water, and then al hote ly yt a pone the leder on the flesshe syde, and strawe ther on the powder of glasce bete yn a brasene morter wt fylyne of yrene y mellyd to geder; and then laye a nother pece of the same lether flesshe seyde to flesshe, and nayle hym to the scylde and lete hyme drye, and ther nother sper nother ege tole enter ther ynne"

This is similar except instead of sand, powdered glass and iron filings are used.

Edited to add; for those interested here's where I found the above quote http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...let+recipe

Éirinn go Brách
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Mon 17 Aug, 2020 10:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen, I was thinking of that same topic myself. This idea might be a stretch, but remember when Thorer Hund gets struck with a sword and "it was as if dust flew from his reindeer-skin coat."
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Aug, 2020 11:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

I made this video that may be interesting on the subject. In it I show samples of hardened leather, describe the process and then shoot them.

https://youtu.be/RO_nG6OpCKg

Tod

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Aug, 2020 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Hi Guys,

I made this video that may be interesting on the subject. In it I show samples of hardened leather, describe the process and then shoot them.

https://youtu.be/RO_nG6OpCKg

Tod


Tod,
I love your videos. Happy I always watch them and get jealous of all the cool things you get to do. I think your thought process about the leather is interesting and fits well within the technology available at the time. European leather armour seems to be mentioned more often before thrust-oriented swords were popular. Leather as hard as what you made would be probably do well against sword cuts and likely also impart less blunt force trauma to the wearer than mail over padding.

Interesting stuff!

Happy

ChadA

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Karl Knisley




PostPosted: Thu 27 Aug, 2020 10:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Leo Todeschini"]Hi Guys,

I made this video that may be interesting on the subject. In it I show samples of hardened leather, describe the process and then shoot them.

https://youtu.be/RO_nG6OpCKg

Tod[/quote

Your videos put the History Channel to shame.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 27 Aug, 2020 2:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Leo Todeschini wrote:
Hi Guys,

I made this video that may be interesting on the subject. In it I show samples of hardened leather, describe the process and then shoot them.

https://youtu.be/RO_nG6OpCKg

Tod


Tod,
I love your videos. Happy I always watch them and get jealous of all the cool things you get to do. I think your thought process about the leather is interesting and fits well within the technology available at the time. European leather armour seems to be mentioned more often before thrust-oriented swords were popular. Leather as hard as what you made would be probably do well against sword cuts and likely also impart less blunt force trauma to the wearer than mail over padding.

Interesting stuff!

Swords are largely irrelevant regardless of whether they are thrust-oriented or not. For all of the time in question, the most common threat on any battlefield came from spears and arrows, not swords. All armour, regardless of where or when or how it was made, was primarily designed to stop those weapons.

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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Sun 01 Oct, 2023 8:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This may or may not have anything to do with armour, but I thought it was still interesting: https://books.google.com/books?id=lTR_Ui64gssC&pg=PA440#v=onepage&q=leather&f=false Some info on pilches: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pilch and https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Pilch
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Mark Millman





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PostPosted: Mon 02 Oct, 2023 3:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Parker,

The only thing the quotation you cite has to do with armor is that in it, Holinshed claims that King Edward told the English army that the Scots didn't have any.

Best,

Mark Millman
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Sean Manning




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PostPosted: Mon 02 Oct, 2023 9:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
This may or may not have anything to do with armour, but I thought it was still interesting: https://books.google.com/books?id=lTR_Ui64gssC&pg=PA440#v=onepage&q=leather&f=false Some info on pilches: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pilch and https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Pilch

Here is a complete English translation of John Mair's Latin history of Scotland from the 16th century https://archive.org/details/historyofgreater00majorich/page/234/mode/2up (his Latin name was Major, which let him make a 'dad joke': is the title Mair's History of Britain, or the History of Major Britain ie. Great Britain)

www.bookandsword.com
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Ryan S.




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Oct, 2023 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Len Parker wrote:
This may or may not have anything to do with armour, but I thought it was still interesting: https://books.google.com/books?id=lTR_Ui64gssC&pg=PA440#v=onepage&q=leather&f=false Some info on pilches: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pilch and https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Pilch

Here is a complete English translation of John Mair's Latin history of Scotland from the 16th century https://archive.org/details/historyofgreater00majorich/page/234/mode/2up (his Latin name was Major, which let him make a 'dad joke': is the title Mair's History of Britain, or the History of Major Britain ie. Great Britain)


Thanks, that is a useful link. It seems to imply that deer skin was not seen as armour, but was worn by better off Scottish troops. The description of the Scots fits more with the depiction in Braveheart, than with other more academic descriptions of the battle of Bannonkburn though, describing them as wild and even having them fight naked.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Oct, 2023 8:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Original Latin: https://books.google.com/books?id=FFsVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q=corio&f=false
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Mark Millman





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Oct, 2023 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Parker,

Thank you for providing a link to the Latin original. It confirms that the only reference to armor in this passage is to the Scots' lack of any.

Best,

Mark Millman
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Ryan S.




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Oct, 2023 3:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I keep wondering if there is any other evidence for the Scots wearing deerskin. From the context, King Edward isn´t really a reliable witness, and the comment about deer skin doesn´t apply to the Bruce, who gives his speech his full armour (compared to Edward who gives his speech in royal robes). The Scots as underdogs, but also noble savages is emphazied including in the actual account of the battle, where "Wild Scots" throw off their plaids to fight naked. Because of the date of the book, I am not sure if John Major would have been inspired by Native Amercians wearing buckskin, but he was certainly influnced by the idea of Picts fighting naked. Anyway, I am sure that the battle of Bannockburn is well studied, so there should be information about which they actually wore.
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Mark Millman





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Oct, 2023 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Ryan S.,

The point here is that, whatever one believes about the factual reliability of the statement, it clearly says that the deerskins that some of the Scots wore were not armor. This thread is about evidence for medieval European leather armor. The quoted passage doesn't provide any.

Whether the statements about the Scots' garments are accurate or reflect literary tropes is an interesting question, but one tangential to the topic of this thread.

Best,

Mark Millman
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Ryan S.




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Oct, 2023 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Millman wrote:
Dear Ryan S.,

The point here is that, whatever one believes about the factual reliability of the statement, it clearly says that the deerskins that some of the Scots wore were not armor. This thread is about evidence for medieval European leather armor. The quoted passage doesn't provide any.

Whether the statements about the Scots' garments are accurate or reflect literary tropes is an interesting question, but one tangential to the topic of this thread.

Best,

Mark Millman


Dear Mark Millman,

I see your point, but respectfully disagree. One must always consider quotes in their context, and in this case, the statement about deerskin is said as part of a speech that begins with the claim that victory for the English is certain (we all know it turned out otherwise). So, the narrative Major is telling is that the English King is underestimating the Scots, is he also underestimating their armour? This has to be ruled out. Furthermore, the reliabiltiy of a source is always important.

I have in my search for more information about Scots clothing in this period found some interesting information:

Historian Fergus Cannan claims that the yellow shirts were a sort of armour or semi-armour. He uses the word "war shirt" but I am not sure what that means and how historical it was. Should this be something like BDU or a field jacket?

https://medievalscotland.org/clothing/refs/majorwildscots.shtml This has another quote from John Major´s History:

"From the middle of the thigh to the foot they have no covering for the leg, clothing themselves with a mantle instead of an upper garment and a shirt dyed with safforn. ... In time of war they cover their whole body with a shirt of mail of iron rings, and fight in that. The common people of the Highland (lit. 'wild') Scots rush into battle having their body clothed with a linen garment manifoldly sewed and painted or daubed with pitch, with a covering of deerskin."

I am not sure if this refers to a different time period of the battle of Bannockburn, but it seems that according to Majors, the Scots did wear armour. It sounds like gamebson with either a layer of deerskin over it or a deerskin jacket. It is possible that the deerskin jacket was something similar to the red jacket worn by this Irish Kern:

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Ryan S.




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PostPosted: Mon 09 Oct, 2023 10:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An Update:

As far as I can tell, the jackets worn by Kerns are made of wool, not leather. So that the deerskins that are described are probably refering to gambesons with a layer of deerskin. So, Edward was probably talking about armour. Interestingly, this was already mentioned at the beginning of this forum.

I have also found references to leather quilted jacks, which could be the same thing as these linen and deerskin armour.
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Mark Millman





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PostPosted: Mon 09 Oct, 2023 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Ryan S.,

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. However, I would argue that I have not neglected the context. First, the speech that Major attributes to Edward is itself qualified by the statement that he "is said to have said", which does not put it on a very secure evidentiary footing considering the two-century gap between battle and book and Major's failure to specify a source contemporary with, or closely following, the battle. Second, while Edward may well have underestimated the Scots' armor, the assertion Major reports him to have made is that the deerskins were not armor. Whether (assuming that the attributed speech reflects some actual statement) they may have covered other armor of which Edward was unaware or that he wished to minimize is not material to the topic of this thread. Whether or not his speech in its historical context may suggest that the Scots soldiers had armor, the speech still is not evidence that the deerskins were armor; rather, it denies the possibility. Nor can it be used as negative evidence, because it merely says that the deerskins were clothing and in fact contrasts them to armor, as opposed to saying something like, "You have heard that the Scots harden leather to defend themselves, but these skins are no more than clothing."

Based on the article you cite about Fergus Cannan, I would agree that he argues that the léine croich is a kind of distinctive military garment. I see that he speculates that its thickness and many folds may have given it some protective capacity, but it does not appear that it was designed specifically as armor--for example, it lacks quilting, which was widely used for purpose-made cloth armors, including those of the Gaels, while the léine croich was in use.

Major's book was published in 1521 and he was born in 1467, so it seems likely he refers primarily to contemporary encounters with the Scots Highlanders. Because he doesn't discuss his sources for his description of Scottish clothing it's hard to know whether they extend as far back as accounts of Bannockburn. It's not clear whether Highland soldiers (note that Major's description is of the clothing of sylvestrium Scotorum, "wild Scots", generally understood to mean Highlanders) played much part at Bannockburn.

But all of this may merely mean that I'm inclined to interpret more conservatively than you are, and that I'm disinclined to broaden the thread's stated topic.

Best,

Mark Millman
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