Author |
Message |
Alessandro B.
Location: Italy Joined: 19 Dec 2018
Posts: 2
|
Posted: Sat 06 Jul, 2019 1:50 am Post subject: Pre-Late Medieval two handed swords |
|
|
Is there any evidence of even a single example of two handed sword before the Late Middle Ages? I know they wouldn't have been widespread, given the importance of shields in ancient and early medieval combat, but perhaps a specific extravagant (and lucky, as extravagance generally leads to death) warrior could have wanted one for his own particular fighting style.
|
|
|
|
Dan Kary
|
Posted: Sat 06 Jul, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't a clue, but I'll give my unsolicited suspicion: armor got good enough in the late middle ages that it made having a shield less important and freed up a second hand for two handed swords.
|
|
|
|
Mikko Kuusirati
|
Posted: Sat 06 Jul, 2019 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, the Thracian rhomphaia and Dacian falx of Roman times are famous exceptions to the general absence of two-handed cutting blades before late 12th Century or so (at which point you start to see type XII and XIII "great swords of war" at least partially set up for two-handed use). Both are four to five feet long hafted weapons with two to three feet long forward curved blades, so kinda on the borderline of whether to call them long swords or short polearms...
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
|
|
|
|
Kai Lawson
|
Posted: Sun 07 Jul, 2019 12:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There are a number of Central and East Asian swords from just after 200-250 BC onwards with proportions that strongly suggest two handed use. I do not have access to my .pdfs or images, but image searches of Han steel jian or steppe swords will yield some interesting blades. There is also a bone buckle or fastener (name starts with an O?) showing mounted and unmounted men in lamellar armor with bows and very long gripped swords. I naturally don’t have any of those images to hand either.
I’m unaware of any European examples that would fit the bill though.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
|
|
|
|
Jacek Gramlowski
|
Posted: Mon 08 Jul, 2019 12:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kai Lawson wrote: | There are a number of Central and East Asian swords from just after 200-250 BC onwards with proportions that strongly suggest two handed use. I do not have access to my .pdfs or images, but image searches of Han steel jian or steppe swords will yield some interesting blades. There is also a bone buckle or fastener (name starts with an O?) showing mounted and unmounted men in lamellar armor with bows and very long gripped swords. I naturally don’t have any of those images to hand either.
I’m unaware of any European examples that would fit the bill though. |
I poted some of them in another topic with photos http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.37310.html second reply from 10:04
|
|
|
|
Neil Melville
|
Posted: Tue 09 Jul, 2019 3:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
In the appendix to my recent book 'The Two-handed Sword, History, Design and Use' I discuss briefly some very early prototype two-handed swords from eastern Europe and the Near East - the Dacian falx, Sarmatian swords and long seaxes. Since my study is of the European two-hander I have not dealt with Chinese or other east Asian swords. I do discuss the origins of the two-hander and the reasons for its development when at the time when it did.
Neil
N Melville
|
|
|
|
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
|
Posted: Tue 09 Jul, 2019 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Neil Melville wrote: | In the appendix to my recent book 'The Two-handed Sword, History, Design and Use' I discuss briefly some very early prototype two-handed swords from eastern Europe and the Near East - the Dacian falx, Sarmatian swords and long seaxes. Since my study is of the European two-hander I have not dealt with Chinese or other east Asian swords. I do discuss the origins of the two-hander and the reasons for its development when at the time when it did.
Neil |
Neil,
I’m sure you’ve posted it before, but can you give us a link to the book?
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
|
|
|
|
Neil Melville
|
Posted: Wed 10 Jul, 2019 2:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Chad,
Happy to oblige. Book has very complimentary foreword by Mike Loades. Should be available from Amazon. Was published in February this year, delayed from November by production problems. Hope it sheds some light, and you like it.
Neil
https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/The-Two-Handed-Sword-Hardback/p/15316
N Melville
|
|
|
|
Graham Shearlaw
|
Posted: Wed 10 Jul, 2019 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some of the late La Tène swords have quite long tangs 8-9 inch's so long enough for a two handed grip unless you have massive hilt fittings.
The longer blades are getting to around a meter in length and often have rounded or squared off points.
|
|
|
|
Sean Manning
|
Posted: Fri 12 Jul, 2019 2:46 am Post subject: Re: Pre-Late Medieval two handed swords |
|
|
Alessandro B. wrote: | Is there any evidence of even a single example of two handed sword before the Late Middle Ages? I know they wouldn't have been widespread, given the importance of shields in ancient and early medieval combat, but perhaps a specific extravagant (and lucky, as extravagance generally leads to death) warrior could have wanted one for his own particular fighting style. |
There are some things in India in the fourth century BCE in the Alexander historians like Arrian, I am not sure if there is firmly dated art to confirm. The horsemen on the Orlat battle plaque have long-hilted swords, but they wield them like a langes Messer ... its possible that they gripped them two-handed on foot.
weekly writing ~ material culture
|
|
|
|
Kai Lawson
|
Posted: Fri 12 Jul, 2019 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Orlat Plaque—that’s it! Thank you Sean Manning. I was away from home and couldn’t access my computer.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
|
|
|
|
|