[Ali Zufer]

I've often heard people claim that there's sources in pre-high middle ages Europe which details layering tunics (without quilting) as a form of defence. I was wondering if any of you have any sources on this. Supposedly it was either done by the Celts or the Anglo-Saxons, though I cannot remember which one of them it was

[Dan Howard]

You definitely won't find a source supporting the claim that Celts or Anglo-Saxons did this.

[Ali Zufer]

Indeed it seems I won't, though something like that seems to exist in an Irish source from the 11th century, Tain Bo Cuailgne

Apart from that one referred to me by a friend however I've yet to come up with anything myself

[Stephen Curtin]

Well the Maciejowski Bible show tunics and surcoats which appear to be made of at least two layers. You can tell by the fact that the inside and outside of these garments have different colours. Now I presume an undershirt was worn underneath everything, so if you add this up you get mail worn with at least five layers of cloth.

Edited to add:
I just noticed your question said nothing about multiple layers of cloth under mail. You are asking about using multiple layers of tunics as a defence in their own right. Sorry can't help with this question.

[Dan Howard]

[Ali Zufer]

[Dan Howard]

[Ali Zufer]

While I do appreciate all that, I already know most of those. I did specify pre high middle ages in the original question. The greek garment is interesting however, I didn't know that the Greeks used linen armour

[Sean Manning]

[Sean Manning]

Its also worth remembering that before the 19th century, most people seem to have owned about 2 or 3 sets of clothing and maybe one more set of underwear. The widespread use of quilted armour seems to go hand in hand with the cultivation or import of cotton: it was strong and lofty, and much much cheaper than weaving 20-90 yards of fabric just to turn it into one armour. Cultures which cultivated cotton or imported it by the shipload tend to develop quilted armour, cultures without that access don't tend to use it, because if you were rich enough for a 10, 20, or 30 layer fabric armour you could probably afford armour of some other material.

[Dan Howard]

Found a 30-layered one that I don't think we have discussed before. It is Korean and currently in the MET. It is one of the armours that was donated from Stone's collection.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/24009

"The tunic of this armor is composed of thirty layers of a tough cotton fabric, skillfully cut and sandwiched together with hemp stitching to give an overall thickness of less than one inch." Weight: 6,207g

[Stephen Curtin]

I wonder why they didn't give the actual thickness instead of saying that it is less than an inch? Less than an inch is not a very exact figure, or is the implementation that this is just shy of an inch?

Anyway thanks for sharing this Dan.

[Dan Howard]

We are lucky to even get that. This is the first time I have ever seen weight, thickness, and the number of layers all being mentioned. In any case, the thickness wouldn't be uniform; there isn't much point being any more precise unless they present us with a table listing the thicknesses at different parts of the armour.

[Stephen Curtin]

[Dan Howard]

It would be pretty hard to get an exact measurement because it isn't a rigid surface. How much pressure do you apply with the calipers before taking a reading?

[Stephen Curtin]

Fair point.

[Mart Shearer]

It might be of interest to compare the modern U.S. M69 ballistic nylon vests used in Vietnam, ot the Kevlar PASGT body armor regarding number of layers, weight, etc..

[Jonathan Dean]

[Dan Howard]

Textile armour might have been less expensive than mail but it wasn't cheap. It is like comparing a $250,000 sportscar and a $150,000 sportscar. The average person can afford neither of them. Poor fighters never wore textile armour; they wore no armour at all.

If you want to claim that felt was used as armour in Western Europe, we need some credible evidence. Otherwise you could rightly be accused of setting up a strawman.

High grades of linen were rarely used for armour; we have multiple texts telling us that old linen was preferred. The quality textiles were reserve for the outermost layer.

[Jonathan Dean]