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David Lindberg
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 Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: Windlass Damascus Swords |
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Now, I know that Windlass is not famous for great quality, but if my observation is correct, they may very well be guilty of fraud. I recently purchased the Windlass "Damascus Viking Sword". When it arrived, i looked at it and saw that the pattern in the steel had been pressed or etched on, not forged in. While the description offered by MRL says that it was etched, it also said that it was done so to reveal the Damascus construction of the blade.
Does anyone have any experience with this sword, or the new damascus viking sword from windlass the 'Loiton'?
I'm not entirely sure that it is normal steel, but it certainly looks that way. I feel quite ripped off right now, so I'm not sure what to do. Based on how you respond, I will likely be contacting Windlass/MRL.
Thank You.
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Steve Grisetti
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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One thing to keep in mind is that Museum Replicas is known for having a very customer friendly return policy. I have made use of that, myself. If you are unhappy with the piece, I am sure that you can send it back.
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David Lindberg
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 6:27 pm Post subject: Thanks |
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But I'm not sure whether to be disappointed. Right now, looking at the blade sides I can see signs of a grain pattern. I could have been wrong, but I still want to know if someone here knows what is up.
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Benjamin McCracken
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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It might help to post a picture. I just looked at my latest MRL catalog and it is hard to tell anything from it.
Ben
_________________________________________
"Your sword is your shield!"
Christian Henry Tobler
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Aaron Justice
Location: Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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I've never heard of Windlass being guilty of fraud in its product. Calling a blade damascus when it isn't is surely a big matter. However I came across these pictures from this website,
http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=1845&step=4
http://www.reliks.com/merchant.ihtml?pid=972&step=4
Which one looks like you sword? Both are damascus steel but have different finishes. One is lighter, but etched to reveal the layers. The other appears to have the layers more naturally.
How can there be a perfect sword when PEOPLE come in all shapes and sizes too?
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David Lindberg
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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They are actually both etched. Mine is the second one. To look at it, it looks the same as any other high-carbon steel sword I've seen, even in the fuller, where an embossed pattern is present.
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Reading the description,it reads to me that the fullers are etched to reveal the pattern as opposed to an etched on pattern,it also says 1065/1095 steel,rather than just one,so,if it is only etched,not good but i havent read of them not being correctly described,
Although it seems strange to label one of the swords damascus steel and label the other with the actuall steel used,
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Scott Byler
Location: New Mexico Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 2:29 am Post subject: |
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I doubt they are telling a lie, but if you have doubts, it is easy enough to check. Just find an out of the way place on the blade and etch it with acid or a weak vinegar solution. You won't have to do any serious clean up that way and if there is a pattern that appears, your answer is there....
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Chris Post
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 3:45 am Post subject: |
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I've handled the Windlass Damascus Viking two years ago. I didn't notice anything strange about the pattern, but then again, I didn't know too many damascus blades back then.
What I did notice, however, was the inferior heat treat. I flexed the blade just 4" or so and it took a set.. Maybe they've improved the heat treat by now, or it's just a gamble with every sword shipped out. Besides that, I'd first like to see it disassembled before trying any real cutting with it.
So well, it's a Damascus blade for under $400, but I'd put it in the category "decoration".
Same applies for the Hanwei version - also took a set after a 4" flex - or in fact any cheap damascus blade.
Skeppsmannens härsmakt räddes ej väta:
blodulvar vadade väst över Panta:
fram över flodens glimmande vatten
buro de lindesköldar i land.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Chris on the heat treatment issue. I've experienced the same thing with pattern welded swords in this price range. This is an excellent example of the complexity of pattern welding, and how easy it is to botch it when done in a mass production environment.(although I consider these swords a pretty crude example of the art).
I'm sure that your sword is folded and not simply etched. It just isn't a very good example of this specific aspect of the craft. These companies don't put that much into their product as it is. There's no reason why they would make a forgery of an inferior product. It simply isn't cost effective.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Alex Oster
Location: Washington and Yokohama Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | It simply isn't cost effective. |
I agree. I have a few MRL's and, where they are ok here and there, I have sent a few back myself. I am sure they do ok revenue-wise each year, but most of the time forgery is more effort than its worth.
then again, I was under the impression that all "damascus" we see now is fake... or rather just patternwelded... I guess I remember something about true damascus being a lost art.... or maybe I am thinking of wootz. its early and I haven't had my eggo's yet 
The pen is mightier than the sword, especially since it can get past security and be stabbed it into a jugular.
This site would be better if everytime I clicked submit... I got to hear a whip crack!
My collection: Various Blades & Conan related
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Alex Oster wrote: | | then again, I was under the impression that all "damascus" we see now is fake... or rather just patternwelded... I guess I remember something about true damascus being a lost art.... or maybe I am thinking of wootz. its early and I haven't had my eggo's yet |
Go see my Islamic sword thread lol.
I haven't shown a picture of damascus johar (pattern welding) but the library has one I can scan in. Damascus Johar is very light grey in color. In the picture I have it looks even lighter because of the lighting they used. The pattern is really interesting. However, the Damascus sword smiths were apparently exported all over the Islamic world. I don't know if anybody still does Damascus Johar or not but there are examples still around. It is different from wootz though. Wootz is a Persian terminology and refers pretty specifically to blades manufactured in India I believe.
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Aaron Justice
Location: Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Post wrote: | I've handled the Windlass Damascus Viking two years ago. I didn't notice anything strange about the pattern, but then again, I didn't know too many damascus blades back then.
What I did notice, however, was the inferior heat treat. I flexed the blade just 4" or so and it took a set.. Maybe they've improved the heat treat by now, or it's just a gamble with every sword shipped out. Besides that, I'd first like to see it disassembled before trying any real cutting with it.
So well, it's a Damascus blade for under $400, but I'd put it in the category "decoration".
Same applies for the Hanwei version - also took a set after a 4" flex - or in fact any cheap damascus blade. |
I would say the tempering is more of a gamble than a rule. I have a Gen2 Godfred sword and it flexes a great deal out of line without setting. I haven't pushed the limits on it of course, flexing any sword too far can damage the blade in its structure to some small degree, whether it sets or not. I've known Windlass swords to flex a great deal out of alignment without taking a set, much more than other low end manufacturers. Damascus however is another thing as far as heat treatment goes.
How can there be a perfect sword when PEOPLE come in all shapes and sizes too?
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David Lindberg
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 11:11 pm Post subject: Now that I've made a fool of myself |
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It turns out that I was wrong. The blade exhibits a nice pattern after testing with vinegar (thank you Scott). I liked it enough that I carefully treated the entire blade! Before and after pictures will be coming if you are interested. This is the first time I modified a blade in any way besides sharpening, so it isn't perfect.
Thanks for your support,
David Lindberg
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Aaron Justice
Location: Southern California Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 183
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| Posted: Fri 18 Feb, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Now that I've made a fool of myself |
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| David Lindberg wrote: | It turns out that I was wrong. The blade exhibits a nice pattern after testing with vinegar (thank you Scott). I liked it enough that I carefully treated the entire blade! Before and after pictures will be coming if you are interested. This is the first time I modified a blade in any way besides sharpening, so it isn't perfect.
Thanks for your support,
David Lindberg |
Well, that's good to hear, especially since I bought one two days ago! Just wanted that cleared up before it gets here is all...
How can there be a perfect sword when PEOPLE come in all shapes and sizes too?
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Glen S. Ramsay
Location: Mississauga, Ontario, Canada Joined: 10 Dec 2003
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sun 20 Feb, 2005 2:04 am Post subject: Re: Now that I've made a fool of myself |
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| David Lindberg wrote: | | Before and after pictures will be coming if you are interested. |
Definitely! Would love to see how it turned out...
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This is a standard topic