Question on Brass Mail -- myArmoury.com

Clint Schaaf · Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2018 6:19 am Post subject: Question on Brass Mail

Good morning, forum, I have a few questions for you.

I was pricing out mail when I stumbled upon brass mail and can find no information on authenticity. I know brass trim was used. Were historical hauberks sometimes made entirely out of brass? Does anyone here know where I can find more information on the history of brass mail? Are there any advantages to brass other than blinding the enemy with pizzazz?

Thanks for your time.

Matthew Amt · Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2018 7:23 am Post subject:

Copper alloy mail was used by the Romans, now and then. Sometimes just trim or decoration, but I'm pretty sure there are at least a couple finds substantial enough to conclude that the whole shirt was bronze or brass. It's all made the same way they made iron mail, alternating rows of solid punched rings and riveted rings.

A couple chunks of so-called "lorica plumata" are very fine copper alloy mail (c. 3mm rings) faced with tiny brass scales, silvered or left plain in decorative patterns. Amazing stuff, like liquid metal.

I don't know about *medieval* brass mail, though, sorry!

Matthew

Mart Shearer · Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2018 3:36 pm Post subject:

Thom Richardson's thesis shows one brass (latten) hauberk remaining in inventory for decades.

xxvj loricas unde iij de alta clavatura iij pro torniamento debiles, j de maille iasrant’, j de latone et
xviij communes

26 hauberks: 3 of high nailing (all riveted?); 3 for the tournament, worn out; 1 of mail jazerant; 1 of latten; and 18 common

clxxiij loricas quarum lxxvj cum coleris de nova factura, iiijxx viij absque coleris de
vetera factura, iiij de alta clavatura, iij pro torniamento debilas, j de maille jasserant
et j de latone

173 hauberks, of which 76 with collars of new workmanship, 88 without collars of old workmanship, 4 of high nailing, 3 for the tournament, worn out, 1 of mail jazerant, and 1 of latten

Perhaps made for the King to give more bling, or as a showpiece for the latten mailmaker's guild?

Mart Shearer · Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2018 3:50 pm Post subject:

The King of France appears to have had a similar appetite for gilding.

Mart Shearer · Posted: Thu 28 Jun, 2018 3:59 pm Post subject:

The Wallace Collection's mail sleeves, A10-11 are also brass with tinning.

Clint Schaaf · Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2018 4:40 am Post subject:

Thank you, Mart. That information is perfect. I am looking to put together a mid 15th century suit of armor, trying to replicate a man-at-arms. It would appear that brass is not for common infantry.

Matthew, I had forgotten about Roman armor (as I usually do). Plumata looks amazing. I can only imagine how intimidating it would be watching a golden century marching towards you and your unarmored Celtic friends.

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2018 10:32 am Post subject:

I remembered reading about brass maille being a thing in the Philippines.

Here is a GOOGLE search using " Brass Chainmail Philippines " and the results, I haven't had a look at the individual search results.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&am...p;oe=UTF-8

By the way in the search I used the common term " Chainmail " as it would avoid getting results about mail postal services ... Wink

Hope that this helps about brass mail where it was actually used as armour, but not likely to have been in common usage in Medieval Europe.

Brass would have some advantages in a very hot and humid climate avoiding problems with rust, but I assume that to be equally protective the rings would have to be made of thicker wire and this would make functional brass maille heavier than iron or steel ringed maille ?

Mark Moore · Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2018 5:06 pm Post subject:

Yes, in my opinion, the rings would have needed to be thicker--or a tighter weave--than traditional Euro mail. The weight issue is also something to ponder. Is steel/iron heavier than brass? I don't know....my scientific mind left me long ago. Worried

......McM

Matthew Amt · Posted: Fri 29 Jun, 2018 6:08 pm Post subject:

I suspect the Romans would not have worried so much about bronze or brass mail being significantly inferior to iron. Bronze was probably better, in fact, and they cheerfully used brass for helmets, scale armor, greaves, etc., well into the 4th century AD. Plain low-carbon iron just wasn't that much stronger, if at all.

The question for brass or medieval latten is what alloy are we talking about? What percentage of zinc, and do we know enough about the strength of these alloys and variations to assume they were detectably inferior to iron mail?

Clearly iron was the metal of choice, but it wasn't necessarily because it made the STRONGEST mail for its weight. There are always other factors.

Matthew

Mart Shearer · Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 4:46 am Post subject:

A.R. Williams tested two latten edging rings and found they were both alpha brass, One was 79% Cu, 21% Zn, and the other 70.2% Cu, 28.8% Zn, with both containing other trace metals.Cartridge Brass, C260, is usually 70% Cu, 30% Zn, and can easily be hardened to a strength comparable with wrought iron mail from the Roman and Medieval period, as Matthew notes. Brass is slightly heavier per volume than iron or steel, but not so much so as to add more than a kilogram or a couple of pounds to the weight of a hauberk. All in all, brass is an extravagant, golden-colored substitute, which is ideal for flaunting one's position and wealth.

Matthew Amt · Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 5:14 am Post subject:

Excellent, thanks! I didn't expect the zinc content to be so high, that's fascinating. And while I knew that a high-tin bronze can be a lot harder than iron, I don't recall any similar studies about brass, so that's interesting, too!

Matthew

M. Livermore · Posted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 5:26 am Post subject:

Regarding brass maille in the Philippines, I think the images I have seen show large diameter, butted rings connecting smaller plates. I remember being surprised by that. Ah, yes. Here's a link to the article here:

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=309...moro+brass

I find these armors very interesting.

Clint Schaaf · Posted: Mon 02 Jul, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject:

I'm not surprised that some latten alloys can be comparable to iron. It's a tempting choice for me. I plan to wear a haubergeon for training blossfechten and harnischfechten, as well as wearing when I run. It will get sweaty and brass could be a better option than mild steel.

T. Kew · Posted: Tue 03 Jul, 2018 10:12 am Post subject:

Clint Schaaf · Posted: Tue 03 Jul, 2018 10:34 am Post subject:

T. Kew, I do have a sport competition kit for HEMA. I've already accepted that HEMA is a direct attack on my future retirement. Wink

The haubergeon is for nothing less than the joy of training in armor, but in going the armor route I want my kit to be both accurate and maximally functional. I figure an Italian style man-at-arms kit, with mail instead of pauldrons protecting the upper arms and shoulders, would allow me to transition between blossfechten and harnischfechten without changing too much gear.