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Alina Boyden
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 Posted: Mon 14 Feb, 2005 10:55 pm Post subject: Islamic swords |
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UCSB's library has a book called Weapons of the Islamic World: Swords and Armour: Exhibition held at the gallery in King Faisal Foundation Center, Riyadh, 1991. This book is basically 111 pages of full color pictures of swords, daggers, and armour from all over the Islamic world. The book is non-circulating but my university was kind enough to provide the students with a giant professional scanner and computer. So, I scanned some pictures for everyone to see. Now, the smart thing to do would have been to scan one or two pictures representative of each type of sword in the book so that one could get a broad overview of Islamic swords. But I really like beefy, almost straight, single edged, saif-type swords. So with the exception of one nifty shakiriya style sword all of the pictures are of similar style weapons. I think my favorite of the bunch is the one with the red tassled scabbard; though from a cultural standpoint the Hungarian one is interesting. If I had the money I'd have Vince Evans make me one of these. Enjoy,
Alina
Last edited by Alina Boyden on Fri 06 May, 2005 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Tue 15 Feb, 2005 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Alina,
Those sure are impressive. I love the Kurda and the Bahang. I think I'm going to have to find a copy of that book to peruse. Any chance of getting some Kilij pictures?
Cheers,
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Tue 15 Feb, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Nate C. wrote: | Hi Alina,
Those sure are impressive. I love the Kurda and the Bahang. I think I'm going to have to find a copy of that book to peruse. Any chance of getting some Kilij pictures?
Cheers, |
I might drop back by the library tomorrow and grab some for you since you asked nicely 
They have some very nice kilijs (or however you pluralize that). They also have jambiya and more of the caucasian style daggers. Then there are all the very curved shamshir that I didn't even get to. So, look forward to those tomorrow then. I don't feel like walking the mile back to my car (college town parking) and driving to the library which is another mile tonight. Walking two miles is even less fun. I'm lazy like that.
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Greyson Brown
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | I don't feel like walking the mile back to my car (college town parking) and driving to the library which is another mile tonight. Walking two miles is even less fun. I'm lazy like that. |
Then imagine having to be the guy who wanders all over campus looking to see if you need a parking ticket!  I spent three years doing that, and then joined the Army; I'm tired of walking!!
No pressure, but I'd love to see some more of those swords. I didn't get out much when I was in Iraq, so I didn't see many swords, just the occasional dagger that some shiek might be wearing.
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot, over.
Although the scabbard is clearly magyar, and the blade could very easily be, given numerous weapons just like it from Hungary, that is a *sabre.* The word Kurda appears nowhere in the Hungarian language that I know of. At BEST, it is a corruption of the word "Kard," which means "sword," and is a category word only, rather than being terminological.
(Igen, igaz van ami ez nem az anyanyelvem. De ez bisztos az felesegeme anyanyelv, es a szot "Kurda" bisztos csak egy corrupcio "Kard"-tol.)
Now I have to try to find a copy of this book and see if it matches up with anything Nagy and Temesvary have published...
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting this, don't mean to be a goober... ther'es just a lot here not adding up. "Shakiriya?" Is that the Arab word for "kindjal?"
And the first weapon should be Persian, yet it clearly has the remains of a pommel chain, which was, so far as I know, used exclusively in Hungary and Poland... while there was plenty of Persian influence around via the Ottomans to explain that, my head spins at the provenancing. Are all these blades being smashed into an Arab lens, whether or not they fit?
Am now *very* curious about this book.
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Mitchell wrote: | Thanks for posting this, don't mean to be a goober... ther'es just a lot here not adding up. "Shakiriya?" Is that the Arab word for "kindjal?"
And the first weapon should be Persian, yet it clearly has the remains of a pommel chain, which was, so far as I know, used exclusively in Hungary and Poland... while there was plenty of Persian influence around via the Ottomans to explain that, my head spins at the provenancing. Are all these blades being smashed into an Arab lens, whether or not they fit?
Am now *very* curious about this book. |
Actually I've seen the pommel chain all over the place on Arab saifs. It is extremely common and in no way limited to Poland and Hungary. In fact, I didn't even know Poland and Hungary used them. I thought they were exclusively Arab.
I should have mentioned from the get go, and will say now that the book is from Saudi Arabia. It is very pro-Arab in terms of its worldview. I didn't think I'd have to analyze the biases of a picture book but such is the life of an historian. In their description of what they call johar which I guess is sorta kinda equivalent to pattern welding, they call the damascus version the best, rag on the persian stuff a bit, and then praise the blades from India. Clearly, modern nationalist tensions are evident in the work. However, as near as I can tell the dates and the regions seem to jive with my knowledge of islamic weapons.
The Hungarian sword is interesting. I don't know what else to say about that. Kurda is probably Arabic not Hungarian. That would be my guess anyway.
Oh, and I would hesitate to call the first sword Persian. It is NOT a shamshir.
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Russ Mitchell
Location: Irving, TX Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Well, the blade definitely looks European to my eye, though I'm not close enough to see construction details w/o a closeup, obviously.. But if it seems reliable to you, it's probably a good way to get up to speed on the region, especially given our mutual "huh?" on the chains...
10,000 lemmings can't be wrong.
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Alina,
Many thanks for sharing these pics,
it's much appreciated, 
If you do get back, any chance you could pick up the isbn number,
thanks again, 
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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No pics tonight guys. Latin homework calls. But I'll try to get into the library tomorrow afternoon and get more pics and the ISBN and full title and all that jazz.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Wed 16 Feb, 2005 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Okay I changed my mind (we girls are allowed to do that every once in awhile). I just got back from the library and I have some new pictures and information.
Nate: I got the Kilij (or "qilich" as the Arabs call it) pictures. There were only 6 examples in the book so I grabbed the best 3 before closing time.
Greyson: More swords but no parking tickets. You do realize the parking ticket people are the most hated people on campus right? I got a ticket once and it was absolutely ridiculous. *grumblegrumble*my tuition pays their salaries*grumblegrumble*I own that stupid parking lot*grumblegrumble*
Russ: I managed to get 1 picture of a really good example of an intact pommel chain on an Arab sword. The pommel chain from the other pics wasn't intact. Usually the chain looks like the knucklebow on a saber guard.
Lee: There is no ISBN number for this book because it is actually a catalogue from the King Faisal center in Riyadh. However, I do have the address of the place if you want to send them a letter (and get placed on the Department of Homeland Security's watch list).
King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies
PO Box 51049 Riyadh 11543 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
Hope that helps.
On to the swords...
The first sword is a straight sword and is dated to the 11th or 12th century AD which I found to be incredible. If the dating is accurate then that means this sword could have seen action in the first crusade. I say if because the only good examples I've seen of early islamic swords (especially straight double edged ones) are in the Topkapi museum in Istanbul and all of them have been rehilted in a later style. This one appears to retain the original hilt and the text makes no mention of rehilting. Of special note are the long quillons. I haven't seen a long crossguard like this on very many Islamic swords. Reminds me a bit of Western swords from the same time.
The second sword is the one I told Russ about. It has a pommel chain attached and is pretty indicative of the Arab saif style that is still being produced in the Islamic world today. Russ is this the same kind of attachment we see on Hungarian and Polish swords?
The third picture is of two kilij type swords.
The fourth picture is another kilij. This one is a bit straighter. I find it to be absolutely gorgeous even though kilij aren't my favorite swords in general.
Finally, I have included a picture that was in the center of the book. It is another of my beloved straight swords with a baddawi style hilt. I like to think of it as the centerfold of the catalogue. (I'm sure all of the gentlemen on the forum know what I'm referring to).
Last edited by Alina Boyden on Fri 06 May, 2005 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul Mortimer
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 12:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Alina,
your a star, 
do you think it would really raise a flag trying to get this book through the official channels,as it must be surely classed as educational as opposed to any thing else going on,
think i'l hit the book searches first though,
cheers,
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
great find chap,boy i type slow, 
i see what you mean, a little more than expected,
may have to check back later in the year,thanks for saving me a search though,
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Greyson Brown
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Alina Boyden wrote: | | Greyson: More swords but no parking tickets. You do realize the parking ticket people are the most hated people on campus right? I got a ticket once and it was absolutely ridiculous. *grumblegrumble*my tuition pays their salaries*grumblegrumble*I own that stupid parking lot*grumblegrumble* |
Yes, I realize that, and I only exacerbated things by wearing a fedora. I was known across campus, even by people who had never received a ticket as (and this is not meant to offend anyone), "the parking Nazi with the hat." Also, I don't know how things work on your campus, but at ours, your tution would not have paid my salary. The entire parking budget, to include new lots, lot improvement, and lot enforment officer (the official name for "parking Nazis") wages came from permit sales (which was actually the bulk of the money), and tickets.
Anyway, back to the swords. I have to admit that I rather like those kiliji, kilijs, or whatever the plural form of kilij is. Sucks, I've already gotten the plural of pilum wrong this week, might as well start a trend.
Thanks also for the info on the book! Probly wouln't buy it, but you never know. Money has a strange way of jumping out of my wallet and sacrificing itself so that I can take home sword related things in its place.
-Grey
"So long as I can keep the path of honor I am well content."
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, The White Company
Last edited by Greyson Brown on Thu 17 Feb, 2005 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Quote Grey,
Money has a strange way of jumping out of my wallet and sacrificing itself so that I can take home sword related things in its place.
Amen sir,
same reason that at this moment in time the books a non starter,things due sooner rather than later,
As to the parking thing,if your not paid to do it someone else will no doubt be happy to,it's no doubt hard enough financing through college,more so with some of the chaps on here mentioning the actuall costs of the courses,
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| Lee O'Hagan wrote: | Thanks Alina,
your a star,
do you think it would really raise a flag trying to get this book through the official channels,as it must be surely classed as educational as opposed to any thing else going on,
think i'l hit the book searches first though,
cheers, |
I don't know if it would raise flags or not, I was just kidding. Technically, I think Saudi Arabia is supposed to be an ally but I don't know what the FBI's policy on these things is. I wouldn't worry about it too seriously though. If you aren't a terrorist then you aren't a terrorist.
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Alina Boyden
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Greyson Brown wrote: | Anyway, back to the swords. I have to admit that I rather like those kiliji, kilijs, or whatever the plural form of kilij is. Sucks, I've already gotten the plural of pilum wrong this week, might as well start a trend.
-Grey |
The plural of pilum is pila because pilum is a second declension neuter noun in Latin. See? I did my homework after all.
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Alina,
just kidding,
yeah, you got me,
Cheers,
Lee.
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Thu 17 Feb, 2005 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Alina,
Thanks for the Kilij pics! I think the Kilij has to be one of my favorite curved blades  . To add to the collection of pics, here is one that was/is offered by Lion Gate A&A.
Cheers,
 Attachment: 62.91 KB
A little worn, but still beautiful
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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