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Fábio Contreva





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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jan, 2018 11:22 am    Post subject: Is it normal for a peened pommel to move a little bit?         Reply with quote

Hello guys!

Does anyone know if it's normal for a peened pommel to move a little bit?

I have a sword with a peened pommel (a scent stopper), and although I'm very careful about it, I can move it's pommel a little bit to the right or the left sufficiently enough for it to be out of alignment. I don´t hear any strange noise when I use the sword, and I can´t see any gap between the pommel and the grip, but if I can move it for sure there is a small one. What puzzles me is that I'm afraid it may cause the hilt to break.

All the best

Fábio
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Arne G.





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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jan, 2018 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Is it normal for a peened pommel to move a little bit?         Reply with quote

Fábio Contreva wrote:
Hello guys!

Does anyone know if it's normal for a peened pommel to move a little bit?

I have a sword with a peened pommel (a scent stopper), and although I'm very careful about it, I can move it's pommel a little bit to the right or the left sufficiently enough for it to be out of alignment. I don´t hear any strange noise when I use the sword, and I can´t see any gap between the pommel and the grip, but if I can move it for sure there is a small one. What puzzles me is that I'm afraid it may cause the hilt to break.

All the best

Fábio


Not if its done correctly it isn't. Can you provide more details: manufacturer, pictures, etc.? Might be fixable, but need to see what we're dealing with.
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William Fox




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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jan, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A peened pommel shouldn't move.

Who is the manufacturer, what is the type of sword? Do you have any photos?

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Fábio Contreva





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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jan, 2018 4:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It´s a custom type XX from A&A. Price range is around 1200 USS. As you may see it is just a little bit, but still I'm not sure if it is normal for a peened sword.


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Jordan E. Williams




Location: California
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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jan, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If it moves then that means it's lose. You need to tighten it. I usually tighten up my peened swords by clamping them into a vice and tapping the peen down with a ball peen hammer. Works charms.
His Imperial and Royal Majesty Hordan Vilhelm the Great, by the Grace of God, German Emperor and King of Prussia, Margrave of Brandenburg, Burgrave of Nuremberg, Count of Hohenzollern, Duke of Silesia and of the County of Glatz, Grand Duke of the Lower Rhine!
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Arne G.





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PostPosted: Fri 12 Jan, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fábio Contreva wrote:
It´s a custom type XX from A&A. Price range is around 1200 USS. As you may see it is just a little bit, but still I'm not sure if it is normal for a peened sword.


Well, THAT shouldn't have happened... Is the tang button a separate piece? Usually with A&A swords these are separate, and the button or peen block is screwed on tight and then peened. My guess is that the grip shrank ever so slightly in shipment, which is why the pommel is loose.

So, to fix you should actually screw down that tang button, and THEN re-peen it, assuming that I have correctly deduced the manner of construction. You will want to use a pliers or vise grips, with a piece of leather or rubber in the jaws to prevent scratching the tang button. Get it tightened down as much as possible, and then you will need to peen it down. Do you have a ball peen hammer, and a wood block to put the point of the sword on? This should be (I hope) a pretty straight forward fix.
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Johannes Zenker





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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 3:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While Jordan and Arne propose some viable fixes I think your first course of action should be talking to Craig Johnsson (part of Arms&Armor, active on myArmoury.com, so you should be able to even PM him) or simply write an e-mail to A&A detailing the problem. I would be surprised if they don't offer to fix it free of charge (maybe shipping costs, though), or if that's not an option (for you) they should know for certain whether it's a purely peened construction or if there's some threading involved. That would be relevant to know before you try one of the fixes described above.
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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fábio Contreva wrote:
It´s a custom type XX from A&A. Price range is around 1200 USS. As you may see it is just a little bit, but still I'm not sure if it is normal for a peened sword.


Are you the original purchaser or did you get this from another collector? I wasn't aware A&A did dismountable longswords - not that they couldn't or don't, just wasn't aware that they did, because, as suggested in a previous comment, that looks a lot like a hex nut with a false-peen to hide the nut. If that's the case, then it would be a matter of removing the "peen" from the nut and tightening the nut, maybe applying a bit of Locktite before you do. If you did get it directly from A&A, then, yes, contacting Craig is your best bet so that he can give you the specifics of how everything is affixed and either offer to fix it for you, or provide you with instructions on a proper DIY fix. If you didn't get it directly from A&A, but it's one of theirs, then they have a history of being good about assisting second or third owners in fixing issues that aren't matters of outright abuse or deliberate destruction.

[EDIT] Not really applicable to the thread, but I just realized this is my 200th post/reply. If I were a TV show, this would be a momentous milestone. Laughing Out Loud


Last edited by Victor R. on Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R wrote
Quote:
[EDIT] Not really applicable to the thread, but I just realized this is my 200th post/reply. If I were a TV show, this would be a momentous milestone. Laughing Out Loud


Have you seen Jean Thibodeaus' numbers?

Contact Craig, he is a great guy and you will have no problem sorting it with him. It doesn't mean there is any imminent danger or even a significant problem, it is unfortunate and cosmetic rather than structural, but no big deal to sort out.

Tod

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Fábio Contreva





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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Victor R wrote
Quote:
[EDIT] Not really applicable to the thread, but I just realized this is my 200th post/reply. If I were a TV show, this would be a momentous milestone. Laughing Out Loud


Have you seen Jean Thibodeaus' numbers?

Contact Craig, he is a great guy and you will have no problem sorting it with him. It doesn't mean there is any imminent danger or even a significant problem, it is unfortunate and cosmetic rather than structural, but no big deal to sort out.

Tod


Thank you Leo! And thank you guys, I've just sent craig an e-mail. My problem with this is only structural. I don't care if it is a bit out of alignment.
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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Victor R wrote
Quote:
[EDIT] Not really applicable to the thread, but I just realized this is my 200th post/reply. If I were a TV show, this would be a momentous milestone. Laughing Out Loud


Have you seen Jean Thibodeaus' numbers?


Oh - I know there are hundreds of people with WAY more posts - I just usually absorb here because I rarely have much to add. It might take another three to five years for me to hit 300!
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Sat 13 Jan, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
Leo Todeschini wrote:
Victor R wrote
Quote:
[EDIT] Not really applicable to the thread, but I just realized this is my 200th post/reply. If I were a TV show, this would be a momentous milestone. Laughing Out Loud


Have you seen Jean Thibodeaus' numbers?


Oh - I know there are hundreds of people with WAY more posts - I just usually absorb here because I rarely have much to add. It might take another three to five years for me to hit 300!


By the way I think that Leo was just teasing you a bit and not meaning anything negative about it.

I personally found Leo mentioning my post totals sort of funny in a weird way, but I can appreciate that reaching a nice round number can be satisfying, I have personally bragged in the past when crossed over 1000 or multiple times 1000 posts: Lots of people don't post at all or are well below 200 posts.

So Victor consider yourself congratulated.... Big Grin Cool

Oh, and my average number of posts in the last couple of years have been below 100 a year ..... Wink


Back to the peen: I have taken the chance and peened loose pommels a few times myself with good success, but it is a risk doing it cold if one over does it and the peen breaks at the corners if metal fatigue makes the peen fragile if one goes at it with one too many hammer strikes.

Also doing it neatly means controlling the number and placement of the hammer strikes.

One good thing is that the pommel is symmetrical and basically the same all around: A disk pommel that can move in and out of alinement with the edges of the blade and with the guard is much more annoying.

If the grip has shrunk it might be possible to get some drops of super glue into the gap .... but this might stain the grip leather or not work.

Firstly wait for Craig's e-mail or PM reply before doing anything: He may offer to repair it, or at the very least let you know exactly what to do if you want to do it yourself, probably then if you accept the risk of doing it yourself.

In my case with International shipping I do my own repairs when they are minor and I think that I can do it myself.

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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Jan, 2018 3:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would suggest that only the square/pyramidal peen blocks of the A&A swords use the threaded approach.

A rocking, or shifting of the pommel shown in this thread is a little more disturbing to me, If there is side to side shifting, even a good bonk or (if threaded) otherwise tightened, will never truly avoid slippage. The one A&A I had apart had the kind of opposite issue where the pommel was seated tightly but keeping the compression from tightening the cross guard. The only way the shown pommel would shift so is if the opening in the pommel isn't tightly keyed/fitted to the tang's width. If it is truly rocking, I don't see an easy fix without disassembly or maybe superglue. Grips do shrink but the metal components really do benefit from close fitting.

Cheers

GC
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William Fox




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arne G. wrote:
Fábio Contreva wrote:
It´s a custom type XX from A&A. Price range is around 1200 USS. As you may see it is just a little bit, but still I'm not sure if it is normal for a peened sword.


Well, THAT shouldn't have happened... Is the tang button a separate piece? Usually with A&A swords these are separate, and the button or peen block is screwed on tight and then peened. My guess is that the grip shrank ever so slightly in shipment, which is why the pommel is loose.

So, to fix you should actually screw down that tang button, and THEN re-peen it, assuming that I have correctly deduced the manner of construction. You will want to use a pliers or vise grips, with a piece of leather or rubber in the jaws to prevent scratching the tang button. Get it tightened down as much as possible, and then you will need to peen it down. Do you have a ball peen hammer, and a wood block to put the point of the sword on? This should be (I hope) a pretty straight forward fix.


Hi, I noticed your comment on grip shrinkage being a possible cause. Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but this is a replica of a mediaeval sword with peened pommel. My understanding is that the pommel should be firmly in place with the tang, and then the grip is attached by putting two halves of wood around the tang and then wrapping around cord and leather. In that case, the grip shrinking should make no difference to the pommel tightness.

Original mediaeval swords, on which the grips have long since rotted away, still have tight pommels and good balance nonetheless.

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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martin Fox wrote
Quote:
My understanding is that the pommel should be firmly in place with the tang, and then the grip is attached by putting two halves of wood around the tang and then wrapping around cord and leather. In that case, the grip shrinking should make no difference to the pommel tightness.

Original mediaeval swords, on which the grips have long since rotted away, still have tight pommels and good balance nonetheless.


Not necessarily the case, both systems are period correct and in fact a great many pommels and guards are so loose and badly bodged into place that to modern sensibilities the things would have rattled and wobbled like hell.

Tod

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Arne G.





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PostPosted: Mon 15 Jan, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
I would suggest that only the square/pyramidal peen blocks of the A&A swords use the threaded approach.

A rocking, or shifting of the pommel shown in this thread is a little more disturbing to me, If there is side to side shifting, even a good bonk or (if threaded) otherwise tightened, will never truly avoid slippage. The one A&A I had apart had the kind of opposite issue where the pommel was seated tightly but keeping the compression from tightening the cross guard. The only way the shown pommel would shift so is if the opening in the pommel isn't tightly keyed/fitted to the tang's width. If it is truly rocking, I don't see an easy fix without disassembly or maybe superglue. Grips do shrink but the metal components really do benefit from close fitting.

Cheers

GC


Yeah, that worry crossed my mind as well. I didn't want to suggest anything too complex for someone without a shop at their disposal. If it were mine, I'd take it apart as you suggest and insert wedges into the top of the grip that would extend out into the base of the pommel, at minimum, and then reassemble tightly (or at least tighter). Might even redo the grip altogether, and do what Albion does and wedge in the pommel and insert the new grip in two halves, glue, and recover with leather.
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William Fox




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Martin Fox wrote
Quote:
My understanding is that the pommel should be firmly in place with the tang, and then the grip is attached by putting two halves of wood around the tang and then wrapping around cord and leather. In that case, the grip shrinking should make no difference to the pommel tightness.

Original mediaeval swords, on which the grips have long since rotted away, still have tight pommels and good balance nonetheless.


Not necessarily the case, both systems are period correct and in fact a great many pommels and guards are so loose and badly bodged into place that to modern sensibilities the things would have rattled and wobbled like hell.

Tod


Hi Tod,
What precisely is not the case? I also didn't understand what you meant by 'both systems'. Please explain.
I said that once a pommel is peened to a tang the only way of getting a wooden grip on the sword is by attaching in two halves. You can't slide the thing on after the pommel has been peened. So theoretically, grip shrinkage should make no difference. Either the pommel was one securely or it wasn't.

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Victor R.




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PostPosted: Tue 16 Jan, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Fox wrote:
Leo Todeschini wrote:
Martin Fox wrote
Quote:
My understanding is that the pommel should be firmly in place with the tang, and then the grip is attached by putting two halves of wood around the tang and then wrapping around cord and leather. In that case, the grip shrinking should make no difference to the pommel tightness.

Original mediaeval swords, on which the grips have long since rotted away, still have tight pommels and good balance nonetheless.


Not necessarily the case, both systems are period correct and in fact a great many pommels and guards are so loose and badly bodged into place that to modern sensibilities the things would have rattled and wobbled like hell.

Tod


Hi Tod,
What precisely is not the case? I also didn't understand what you meant by 'both systems'. Please explain.
I said that once a pommel is peened to a tang the only way of getting a wooden grip on the sword is by attaching in two halves. You can't slide the thing on after the pommel has been peened. So theoretically, grip shrinkage should make no difference. Either the pommel was one securely or it wasn't.


What Tod meant is that both the method you described (what I'll refer to as the "sandwich method"), as well as the "slide over then peen" method are period correct methods of affixing a grip and setting a peen. If the sandwich method is used, then grip shrinkage should not lead to pommel looseness; if the other method is used, then shrinkage may cause looseness. What is "precisely not the case" is the assertion that only the sandwich method was used in period, and given Tod has handled period originals, I'd take him at his word on this. Hope that clarifies.
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