[Len Parker]

Look at the shield second from right. I see a long guige strap attached on each side of the grip, and to the left a smaller strap. This is the only Carolingian painting that shows a second smaller strap. The modern descriptions I've read only mention the center grip.


I'm assuming it's a forearm strap. Notice how the shield just hangs on the arm with the hand holding the reins.


On foot would this allow a two hand thrust with your spear with your shield in front?

[Matthew Amt]

Hoo, that first illustration looks like it's showing only the *fronts* of those shields, to me! IF the 2 on the right are actually the backs, then that little detail next to the central circle is the end of the grip, and the curious "hanging" loopy thing which looks like a drawing of an island is most likely the neck guige. Various rings for carrying straps are pretty common finds on early medieval shields, as I understand it.

On the second one, that's just a normal center-grip shield hanging by the neck guige. No need to assume any other arm straps, because there isn't any other evidence for such things, that I've ever seen.

Yeah, enlarging that first image and looking some more, it does kinda look like 3 of those shields are seen from the back. But to me they're all straightforward, central grips with (presumably) carrying straps or guiges.

Matthew

[Len Parker]

But you do see there are two straps. There's the longer dark one hanging down a bit past the shield, and then a smaller one just to the left.

[Matthew Amt]

I *think* I see what you're referring to, but even at best the smaller one can't be for the forearm, like the porpax on a Greek shield. It's just too long and floppy.

We may just be looking at wavy lines, here...

Matthew

[Dan Howard]

I only see the fronts of shields in the first image. There is iron strapping across the face to reinforce the handgrip that is presumably on the back.

[Len Parker]

You have to save it and enlarge it. It's seems obvious to me. The second guy from left is the only guy with his hand behind the shield. His is the only shield with the decorative three studs around the front of it. The other three guys all have their arms in front of their shields. Are we suppose to believe they're holding their shields by the bosses? If you look closely you can see the first and the forth also have the smaller straps. They're tiny but they're there.

[Dan Howard]

Yeah, maybe. It just looks like a regular hand grip to me.

[Mark Millman]

Dear Mr. Parker,

[Len Parker]

Mark, I like your explanation. The guige strap looped around the grip makes sense. I knew I saw two loops hanging on that shield.
Here's a close up Egfroth posted on AA.

[Mikko Kuusirati]

Here's a somewhat better quality image.



(Right-click for the context menu, then middle-click "View Image" to view in full resolution in a new tab. Ctrl + scroll wheel to zoom in/out.)

[Mark Millman]

Dear Len,

[Mark Millman]

Dear Mr. Kuusirati,

[Len Parker]

This guy has a similar idea for the two studs on the Sutton Hoo shield https://youtu.be/n1e97_OfE6Y?t=565 Craig Peters posted this: https://www.degueulesetdargent.fr/2017/03/02/shield-straps-and-holding-of-the-shield-in-the-early-13th-century/ Down near bottom you can see how later medieval horseman put their arm through the strap to hold the reins. I'm thinking the same thing for the earlier horseman. Does this sound plausible?

[Henry R. Gower]

Perusing the images, I am wondering, and have wondered for a long time, what the Carolingian helmets would have looked like. Some other images of Carolingian troops present an even more puzzling challenge by their iconography. They appear to be some kind of a bowl shape, with a rim and a crest on top. I do not think any actual archaeological finds of such helmets have ever been discovered, if they have, I have never seen them.

[Len Parker]

Best sculpture of these helmets I've seen: http://warfare.gq/6C-11C/Ivory_Diptych-Cathed...bottom.htm