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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: "Knightfall" weaponry         Reply with quote

The History Channel's 10-part series dramatizing the last days of the Knights Templar will start broadcasting tonight. Does anyone know who supplied the arms & armor for this production? I plan to watch just for the hardware if for no other reason.

http://knightfall.history.com/?s_kwcid=AL!485...06173121:s
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Wed 06 Dec, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It might be in the end credits. I have it set to record, so I can slow them down if need be. I'll probably watch it through the end, even if it turns into a total historical abomination. Laughing Out Loud ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I didn't watch much of the end credits on last night's episode 1. But I will say, the weapons and armor were better than expected. Happy All of the costuming and sets were quite well done, in my opinion. If the show hits it off well, I can see a Templar sword reproduction with a 'hidden-chamber' pommel coming out in the future. Laughing Out Loud ......McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
Well, I didn't watch much of the end credits on last night's episode 1. But I will say, the weapons and armor were better than expected. :) All of the costuming and sets were quite well done, in my opinion. If the show hits it off well, I can see a Templar sword reproduction with a 'hidden-chamber' pommel coming out in the future. :lol: ......McM


The History Channel website says they will soon have a 'store' which presumably will offer merchandise related to their programming. Expect everything to be overpriced.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No doubts there. Laughing Out Loud I'll stick to my regular ordering spots, I believe. Wink .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Bryan Heff




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Hollywood" has gotten better over the years....but they still can't help themselves it seems in doctoring up swords to look a bit frilly and with grips that tend to be overly long.. I thought the swords were eh. Not awful but still most of them looked a bit goofy to my eyes. The great helms were OK.

I don't think I will stay tuned, it didn't really grab me.

The church is near but the roads are icy. The tavern is far but I will walk carefully. - Russian Proverb
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The main thing that made it a little silly to me was the 'inside the helmet' shots. WTF?! Looked like their heads were inside a 55 gallon metal barrel. Laughing Out Loud .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
The main thing that made it a little silly to me was the 'inside the helmet' shots. WTF?! Looked like their heads were inside a 55 gallon metal barrel. Laughing Out Loud .....McM


Yes the shots from the " INSDE " of the Great Helm was sort of " SURPRISING ", and I was sort of laughing and impressed with the idea at the same time ..... WTF?! Laughing Out Loud

Not realistic for obvious reasons but it did remind me of how it feels being inside a great helm and I couldn't help imagining how hot and stuffy it would be inside the helm under a hot Middle East Sun, and a bit of claustrophobia.

Although they made it seem like there was a little too much space between the eyes and the vision slits ? I almost had the feeling that we where inside a WWI tank with the mobility of the head inside the helm: This wasn't a frog faced helm completely supported on the shoulders where the head can move inside the helm .... this type of great helm sits on top of a padded coif with or without a cervelière.

It does give people who have never had a great helm reproduction on their heads an idea of what it feels like and also maybe the restricted vision and situational awareness.

Actually, they sort of have the Knights fighting as if they had little to no trouble seeing what was around them.

I wonder how they managed to get the cameraman inside the helm with the actor ....... Wink Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud


Generally I enjoyed the first episode, I didn't look too critically for strict historical accuracy, but the armour and arms seem a lot closer to historical than with the " Biker Gear " in the VIKINGS T.V. series: That one I don't even try to look for anything near historical, the story and characters are fun and I don't spoil it for myself obsessing about historical accuracy !

For instance a lot of the historical characters like Ragnar and Rollo, who are supposed to be brothers lived at least half or a full generation from each other, a lot of events from a few centuries are condensed into the same time period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings_(TV_series)#Cast

If the series follow history even a little bit the Templars are soon going to be in " Big Trouble " and any survivors at the end of the series should be either dead, outlawed or exiled if they survived at all.

Anyway, when I watch this kind of series I want first to be entertained and I will look for historical accuracy some place else, although when they get some things right, or " NOT TOO WRONG " it's " BONUS POINTS ". Big Grin Cool

At first glance the costuming looks good, the CGI showing cities and large battles with a cast of thousands look pretty good.

The ships shown at the beginning look correct for the period.

I would have to look again at the fight scenes with a more critical eye, but it seemed like at least good stage fighting, and some of the sword fights are quick and not the usual Hollywood intemitable fights lasting 20 minutes ?


As too a review of the fighting I look forward to when and if Matt Easton of Scholagladitoria gives us a review. Wink Big Grin

Like this one about the GAME OF THRONES Brien VS the Hound Fight Review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE7JB5zScQ0

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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Dec, 2017 7:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I haven't watched it yet. Am I correct in stating that the Templars lose possession of the Holy Grail at the beginning of the series, and the subsequent search for it is one of the main themes of the show? This is of course total historical hogwash. The whole Templars/Grail thing was a much later fantasy. It wouldn't surprise me if it was cooked up in the 19th century.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger---The 'Grail' is supposedly now in France, as per the end of Ep.1, even though it was shown settling to the sea floor after the ship carrying it was bombed and sunk at the start of the show. WTF?! Not a clue where this is going. Laughing Out Loud
Jean---If the view inside my great helm's were like that, I'd install curtains and hang a few pictures in there. Maybe install an AC unit in one of the oculars. That looked bigger than my first apartment! Laughing Out Loud Laughing Out Loud ...........McM

''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My big problem with the series was not with the weaponry and armor. They did a pretty good job of that, overall, as others commented. My problem is with the treatment of the Order and this "Holy Grail" nonsense. Admittedly this is "Historical Fiction" but some things they missed entirely, the Templar Rule for example. The Rule called for celibacy among those Templars who were members of the hardcore Order, i.e. not confrere knights. One of the characters commented that first and foremost they were warriors, when the church looked upon them mainly as monks who could be called to military service when needed. By the time of the suppression, which is just around the corner in this series, a lot of the provisions of The Rule were being winked at but not as thoroughly as shown in the series. The long hair and trimmed beards were not in accordance with The Rule nor was the rather fancy weaponry, which while it seemed period correct, was not allowed under The Rule. The killing of fellow Christians was not allowed under The Rule although those deemed to be heretics were fair game. As far as the Holy Grail, I doubt very much the Templars ever looked for it, or the Ark of the Covenant, much less found it.

All in all I thought it was OK and a couple of specials HC on the Templars have put out before were just as inaccurate historically so I guess it is to be expected.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would find a *real, historically accurate* TV program to be either boring, or on the other hand, too terrifying to watch. Eek! ......McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can forgive 'Vikings' for all kinds of historical inaccuracies because it's just so entertaining, and seems to capture something deep and disturbing about the divide between Pagan and Christian world views. The first episode of Knightfall, on the other hand, struck me as 'paperback romance novel' territory.

By the way, what's with the medieval jackknife shown in the trailer? I'm no knife expert, but surely that can't be right.
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Lloyd Winter




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as the jack-knife goes I believe that folding knives are period in the early 14th century, definitely by the end of the century. Is the knife shown a period knife? I didn't get a close enough look to form an opinion...

What gets me is it's supposed to be 1306 which means Jacques DeMolay has been the Master of the Temple for about 15 years or so, IIRC, but they have Geoffrey as the Master and then when he dies someone else gets the job.
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Lin Robinson




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lloyd Winter wrote:
As far as the jack-knife goes I believe that folding knives are period in the early 14th century, definitely by the end of the century. Is the knife shown a period knife? I didn't get a close enough look to form an opinion...

What gets me is it's supposed to be 1306 which means Jacques DeMolay has been the Master of the Temple for about 15 years or so, IIRC, but they have Geoffrey as the Master and then when he dies someone else gets the job.


I was looking for Jacques myself but he was the Grand Master of the Order. I thing Geoffrey was in charge of the Temple in Paris, although the story line was not clear on that.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Zach Gordon




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PostPosted: Fri 08 Dec, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm sorry... But these responses are really getting to me.. Maybe I'm missing something?

I stopped at the trailer, but I can't find what is "largely accurate" about the arms and armour. The "mail" is all of the misshapen large and wide-SL eave variety, the weird plate armour made up of malformed pauldrons and cops/vambraces that seem to slide up and down the arm, the oversized coifs, massive swords/grips, the lumpy sword scabbards/belts.. Everyone seems dirty and the clothes are pretty dreadful. The random unnecessary leather..

I mean if it's entertaining, fine, but historically accurate? I think we are going downhill with this (and Vikings) not uphill as we were for a short time... I'm blaming people wanting to re-create GoT rather than history... But this show particularly seems really bad to me!

Z
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Sun 10 Dec, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Based on the first 5 minutes it's what I'd call "good enough"

If they removed the random plate armor and went with just maille it would be moderately accurate. Integrated maille coifs would improve it further, as would riveted maille for the main cast. A quick trip to manuscript miniatures by the set armorer would be helpful. I do like how in the opening scenes they showed templar sergeants in black robes The helmet cam scenes in the great helms was pretty nifty. But just like with kingdom of heaven, the saracens are wearing and wielding equipment from the 16th-19th century, not the 13th. The Paris guards in bascinets with arm harnesses is Knights tale levels of anachronistic.


The 1306 expulsion of the jews from france is a neat reference pretty sloppily executed.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/1453511?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
The battle that commences in hollywood tripe/10 and a complete wasted opportunity to
A. have the templars "help expel the jews from the city" and incidentally prevent any battle whatsoever to ire of the evil french bureaucrat trope
or
B. to have the templars come in on an open field as multiple waves of lancers and utterly decimate ground troops (who aren't dressed like extras from a conan the barbarian movie)

Better than "Vikings" by a longshot, but that isn't saying much.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 10 Dec, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I've said many times: expecting historical accuracy from Hollywood is like expecting a breakthrough in physics from a trout. Happy

I found the first episode to be somewhat entertaining. The inside the helm shots were weird. The fact that one character turned his head inside the helm was funny (hard to turn your head inside something that's strapped to your head). The views inside the helms show enough space that you could get $2000 a month for that kind of square footage in NY. Happy

It's better than some TV offerings but never as good I'd like. However, the number of people who know or care what's wrong with the show from a historical standpoint is small enough to be irrelevant to producers and advertisers.

If it's like most things of this type, it will drive some purchases in the market for entry level swords. Some purchasers will find they dig this stuff more than they thought they would and will seek out more info and find sites like this.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Dec, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad, that last statement is totally true. I would probably not be here now, if not for watching hokey 'sword movies' when I was younger. I'm sure I'm not the only one here that can say that. Wink Laughing Out Loud .......McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Bryan Heff




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Dec, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The inside the helmet shots were sort of corny and as Chad mentioned when he turns his head "inside" the helm it made little sense...BUT it still kind of worked for me on this one level. I interpreted (right or wrong who knows) that the producers were trying to convey a tank-like feeling That the medieval knight, fully armored, on his horse with a great helm was akin to a medieval tank..hard to penetrate encased in armor, which I thought was pretty cool. That is how it came across to me and I think it worked on that level.

I just had to sort of accept the cavernous inside shots as artistic license...I guess.

The church is near but the roads are icy. The tavern is far but I will walk carefully. - Russian Proverb
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