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Peter Messent
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 Posted: Wed 06 Sep, 2017 10:05 pm Post subject: Kilmory Knap & Keills stones, sword depictions and datin |
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Evening!
I've been wondering a lot about Scottish swords lately, and I just so happened to stumble across a bunch of pictures from Kilmory Knap Chapel and Keills Chapel (western Scotland) with some rather stunning depictions of swords carved in stone. I've read these stones dated variously from the 12th to the 14th century (12th seems awfully early?), leaving me with little certainty about where they actually fall. Of the ones I could get a good look at from pictures, it seems that they had the down-swept quillons (of course that have become stereotypical of Scottish swords) and either wheel pommels with large peen blocks or some evolution of the Viking-age type lobate pommel. The MacMillan Cross, which I understand to be 15th century, also depicts a single-handed sword with a lobate pommel. Essentially, the depictions were in line with Albion's Laird and Caithness swords.
By chance, does anyone happen to have a better approximation for the dates of any of these sword depictions? I'm trying to get an idea of what Scottish swords of the high (or early-late?) middle ages would have looked like (if and where they are unique, of course) and I don't seem to be having a great amount of luck. I've attached a couple of the better pictures I found - there are better pictures on google but I was trying to avoid copyrighted stuff.
Thanks in advance for any help!
Peter
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Thu 07 Sep, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Peter. As far as I know most of these grave slabs are dated to the 15th and 16th centuries.
The lobate pommel type probably developed from a hilt style popular in northern Britain and Norway in the 12th century. Here's a beautiful example of a modern reproduction of the type:
http://myArmoury.com/review_helmes_korsoygaden.html
I'm not sure exactly when the wheel pommel with elongated peen block style first shows up but it was in use by at least 1411 as attested by the effigy of Sir Gilbert de Greenlaw.
Éirinn go Brách
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Peter Messent
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| Posted: Thu 07 Sep, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply Stephen! 15th century sounds quite a bit closer to what I thought the heyday of these styles was. I'm rather surprised that the lobate pommel would be represented so late, though - I haven't seen any intermediate examples from the 13th-14th century. That is a beautiful reproduction you linked!
Unfortunately this still leaves me wondering what Scottish swords looked like in the 13th-14th centuries - if they were uniquely "Scottish" at all of course! I suppose that the relatively distinctive Scottish style of the 15th-18th century has led me to believe (without a whole lot of evidence) that earlier weapons would have been distinctive as well.
Thanks again!
Peter
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Going back to the link Stephen sent, I will highly recommend the Hanwei Cawood sword. Wonderful piece. Mine is the one sword in my modest collection that I would never even consider parting with. Pick one up...IF...you can find one in stock, and not grossly overpriced. I bought mine from KoA.  .....McM
www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=sh2457&...wood+Sword
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Do yourself a favor though. Get a bottle of leather dye for that grip and scabbard, unless you just really like pumpkin-orange. That stuff had to GO. 100% improvement, if you ask me. .....McM
Attachment: 34.71 KB
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Messent wrote: | | 15th century sounds quite a bit closer to what I thought the heyday of these styles was. I'm rather surprised that the lobate pommel would be represented so late, though - I haven't seen any intermediate examples from the 13th-14th century..... Unfortunately this still leaves me wondering what Scottish swords looked like in the 13th-14th centuries - if they were uniquely "Scottish" at all of course! I suppose that the relatively distinctive Scottish style of the 15th-18th century has led me to believe (without a whole lot of evidence) that earlier weapons would have been distinctive as well. |
Thinking more on this I seem to remember a depiction of a hilt very similar to Albion's "Caithness" on a late 13th century Royal Seal (John Balliol's maybe?). I don't really think that there was an intermediary style between the "Cawood" style and the "Caithness" style. The only real difference between the two is the guard changed from being curved to straight.
As for the uniqueness of medieval Scottish swords. Well the "Cawood" style of the 12th / 13th century, as has been said, was not unique to Scotland. The "Caithness" style, which does seem to be unique, probably developed from the " Cawood" style in the late 13th / early 14th century.
Éirinn go Brách
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Peter Messent
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the recommendation Mark! That's a beautiful sword, and would be a good partner for the sword I put together with a H/T single-hand sword blade and Printed Armoury Dunvegan fittings  I've thought about buying it in the past but always seem to want it right when it's out of stock!
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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Keep on checking in with KoA. They'll have the best price. It's worth every penny. Absolutely one of the best sub-$300 swords on the market today. Get one, neighbor....you won't regret it. ......McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Peter Messent
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | Thinking more on this I seem to remember a depiction of a hilt very similar to Albion's "Caithness" on a late 13th century Royal Seal (John Balliol's maybe?). I don't really think that there was an intermediary style between the "Cawood" style and the "Caithness" style. The only real difference between the two is the guard changed from being curved to straight.
As for the uniqueness of medieval Scottish swords. Well the "Cawood" style of the 12th / 13th century, as has been said, was not unique to Scotland. The "Caithness" style, which does seem to be unique, probably developed from the " Cawood" style in the late 13th / early 14th century. |
Apologies, we posted at the same time and I missed yours! Regarding the Balliol seal, you're correct - I completely forgot about it (even after saving an image of it a month or so ago for that very reason). That's actually somewhat interesting, because Balliol would probably fit comfortably within the demographic that I thought would carry more typical Anglo-Norman type swords of that time (admittedly, having it on his seal doesn't mean he had a sword like that). Still, very interesting that the lobate pommel with the straight but down-sloping quillons (at least that's how they look to me) was known in Balliol's time.
Hopefully I'll be able to get my hands on a Caithness (and/or Laird) before Albion stops making them!
But until then, I'll keep my eye on the Cawood 
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well as pretty much all of the hilt styles that we would consider to be distinctively Scottish were made in urban centres of the Lowlands, which were the areas most influenced by Anglo Norman culture, I don't think it at all strange to imagine someone like John Balliol using a "Caithness" style sword. I think that most people associate "Scottish" swords with the people of the Highlands and Isles, but they were just as much used by Lowlanders. Remember the "Laird" style hilt seen on the effigy of Sir Gilbert de Greenlaw (a Lowlander).
Éirinn go Brách
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Peter Messent
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| Posted: Fri 08 Sep, 2017 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | | Well as pretty much all of the hilt styles that we would consider to be distinctively Scottish were made in urban centres of the Lowlands, which were the areas most influenced by Anglo Norman culture, I don't think it at all strange to imagine someone like John Balliol using a "Caithness" style sword. I think that most people associate "Scottish" swords with the people of the Highlands and Isles, but they were just as much used by Lowlanders. Remember the "Laird" style hilt seen on the effigy of Sir Gilbert de Greenlaw (a Lowlander). |
True, people do tend to have that association - and where there's a difference between highland and lowland styles, people often consider the highland one "more Scottish" - I really just meant that I thought that Scotland's aristocracy as a whole would tend to be more equipped in a more Anglo-Norman style.
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Sat 09 Sep, 2017 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Messent wrote: | | I really just meant that I thought that Scotland's aristocracy as a whole would tend to be more equipped in a more Anglo-Norman style. |
Maybe John Balliol intentionally chose a distinctively Scottish style of hilt as a political statement. This was a time when the Scots were trying to establish their independence from Anglo Norman England.
As with armour, great numbers of swords were produced in Italy and Germany and exported all over Europe. Some of these swords would have been bare blades and needed to be hilted locally, others were already hilted before being exported. I'm sure you would have seen a mixture of both Standard European and Local styles used in Medieval Scotland, what the ratio was though is anyone's guess.
Éirinn go Brách
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sat 09 Sep, 2017 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Cawood type sword, almost identical just bigger, was also found in Norway. It's probable, since it's a design similar to scandinavian swords of that period, that Scots and possibly Normans and Anglo Normans adopted the design from the Norse and Scots evolved it over a century or two to what we recognize as a type represented by many effigies and Albion Caithness.
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Sat 09 Sep, 2017 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Luka I agree.
Éirinn go Brách
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Peter Messent
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| Posted: Mon 11 Sep, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for being so late back to this, I've had a busy few days -
Stephen, I agree that choosing a particularly Scottish-styled sword for John Balliol makes sense - same sort of thing politicians do nowadays, I suppose in trying to appear overtly (sometimes ridiculously, but that's another conversation) "national".
Luka, that does seem a reasonable conclusion - I often forget how long Scandinavian influence lasted in parts of Britain. It does seem only logical that certain things we see as being very Scandinavian became very normal in those areas and were adapted along with everything else.
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Stephen Curtin
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Peter Messent
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| Posted: Fri 15 Sep, 2017 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Stephen - that's a great resource, I'll need to check out the rest of the site when I can
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Sat 25 Nov, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: |
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You've probably seen this before, but here's my take on a circa 14th century Western Highlands sword, with a little help from Albion and A&A: myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=34059
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This is a standard topic