Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Atholl muster rolls 1638 Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Jason O C





Joined: 20 Oct 2012

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 08 Mar, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Atholl muster rolls 1638         Reply with quote

In the features section of the website, the "Renaissance Armies: The Scots" article references a roll of Athollmen taken in 1638. Here are the numbers of men and their arms.

523 men
448 Swords
149 bows
125 targes
110 guns
11 helmets
11 mail shirts
11 axes and halberds
11 pistols
3 two handed swords
2 hagbuts

While looking for the source of this information, I came across this website: http://wiki.bcw-project.org/start?do=index which references another roll of Athollmen from 1638. Here are the numbers of men and their arms.

451 men total.
239 men with only swords.
71 men with swords and bows.
54 men with swords, targes, muskets, and bows.
38 men with swords, targes, and muskets.
21 men with swords and targes.
11 men with swords and bows.
7 men with only bows.
3 men with only muskets.
3 men with swords and muskets.
2 men with swords, muskets, and bows.
1 man with a pole-axe.
1 man with a two handed sword.

I also found this post by Andy Robertson over on swordforum.

Quote:
Tony Carter found a lot of information with regards to actual issues of equipment during his time at Aberdeen Uni.

The 1638 role of arms for the Robertson's reads as follows...

“..in the parishes of Straun, Lude, Kilmaveonig, Moulin, and Logierait - includes the Robertson’s of Straun, Auchleeks, Faskally, Kindrochit, Calbruar, Petagowne, Blairfetty, Lude, Kincraigie, Croftmichie, Lettoch, Ballegullane, Balnacraig, Killiehangie, Easter and Wester Straloch, Ballintuim and Tenandry, also the Reid’s of Pitnacree and Easter Tyre: in all, 207 men of the Clan Donnachaidh, armed with 170 swords, 68 bows with quivers of arrows, 47 guns, also targes or round shields, 2 pole-axes, and 1 habergeon or coat of mail - though the weapons of nineteen men are not given.”


So that's 3 different muster rolls of Athollmen from 1638. Does anyone here know where I might find a source for these rolls? Also if anyone has any other Scottish muster rolls, then please post them here. Thanks in advance.

Jason
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,049

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul, 2017 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jason. 1638 seems to have been a popular year to record muster rolls in Scotland, because I found another one in "The Black Book of Taymooth" detailing the arms and armour kept at Blalloch Castle by the Laird of Glenorchy, and the muster of his tenants from five parishes.

BALLOCH CASTLE

3 Stands of Horsemen's Arms (cuirassier style 3/4 harnesses?)
5 Sets of Corslets, Gorgets, and Headpieces
1 Jack
1 Secrete
1 Headpiece of proof
2 Steel Targets of proof
2 Scottish Pistols
2 Lochaber Axes
6 Banded Staffs
6 Two Handed Swords
10 Hakbuts
20 Muskets with rests and bandoliers
1 Bronze Cannon
1 Iron Cannon
100 lbs gunpowder
12 stone of lead

PARISH of BALLOCH and FINLARG

Bow and Arrows, 2 Hakbuts, Sword, and Target = 1
Bow and Arrows, Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 1
Hakbut, Pistol, Sword, and Target = 1
Bow and Arrows, Pistol, Sword, and Target = 1
Sword, and Target = 2
Hakbut, and Sword = 3
Bow and Arrows, and Sword = 1
Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Target = 1
Sword only = 7
Hakbut only = 1
Bow and Arrows only = 1
No Weapons = 3

PARISH of INCHADDIN

Steelbonnet, Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 1
Steelbonnet, Lochaber Axe, Sword, and Target = 1
Steelbonnet, Sword, and Target = 1
Bow and Arrows, Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 1
Bow and Arrows, Hakbut, and sword = 1
Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 5
Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Target = 2
Hakbut, and Sword = 2
Bow and Arrows, and Sword = 6
Sword and Target = 12
Bow and Arrows only = 1
Sword only = 7

PARISH of KILLIN and STRAPDILLAN

Steelbonnet, Bow and Arrows, 2 Hakbuts, Sword, and Target = 1
Steelbonnet, 2 Hakbuts, and Sword = 1
Steelbonnet, Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 1
Bow and Arrows, Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 1
Bow and Arrows, Hakbut, and Sword = 1
Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Target = 4
Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 1
Sword, and Target = 2
Bow and Arrows, and Sword = 2
Bow and Arrows only = 4
Sword only = 4
No Weapons = 2

PARISH of WEYME

Bow and Arrows, Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 3
Hakbut, Sword, and Target = 3
Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Target = 1
Bow and Arrows, and Sword = 5
Sword, and Target = 2
Sword only = 3

PARISH of DULL

Sword, and Target = 2
Sword only = 1
No Weapons = 7


EDITED TO ADD DETAILS AND CORRECTIONS

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jason O C





Joined: 20 Oct 2012

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Sun 09 Jul, 2017 12:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting find Stephen. Thank you very much for sharing. I found the full text of the black book of Taymooth online, here:

https://archive.org/stream/blackbookoftaymo00inneuoft/blackbookoftaymo00inneuoft_djvu.txt

So between the 113 men mustered; they had 32 hakbuts, 39 bows, and 1 Lochaber axe. As some men had multiple hakbuts and bows, I'm assuming that they lent their extra weapons out to others. This means that 72 of the 113 men had access to a firearm or polearm. The remaining 41 men, were most likely supplied with the muskets, hakbuts, two handed swords, Lochaber axes, and banded staffs, in the Laird of Glenorchy's armoury.

Also of the 113 men; 95 had swords, and 51 had targets.

Jason
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,049

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi again Jason. I've found the source of all of the muster rolls that you referenced in your OP. Even though there are some discrepancies in the figures, all three of the rolls that you referenced are, I believe, one and the same.

The record of the 1638 muster roll of five parishes of Atholl (Struan, Lude, Kilmaveonaig, Moulin, and Logierait) can be found in the appendix of "The Chronicles of the Atholl and Tullibardine families", collected and arranged by John seventh Duke of Atholl, first published in 1908.

The figures given in the features section of this site are taken directly from a chart in the above mentioned book. The second set of figures seem to be off. Perhaps whoever wrote that page was only interested in specific numbers of men in the muster. The figures given by Andy Robertson on SwordForum are taken from this same muster. I haven't counted yet, but about half of the men listed are Robertsons.

I'll post a summary of the muster when I get the time to write it all down.

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,049

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jul, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Summary of the muster rolls of Athollmen of 1638:

2 Haubergeons, 2 Headpieces, 2 Guns, Halberd, 3 Swords, and a Targe =1 man
Haubergeon, Jack, 2 Guns, Pollaxe, and Sword = 1 man
Haubergeon, Headpiece, Gun, Bow and Arrows, Pistol, 2 Swords, and Targe = 1 man
Haubergeon, Headpiece, Gun, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Haubergeon, Gun, 2 Two Handed Swords, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Haubergeon, 4 Guns, 2 Pistols, Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Haubergeon, 2 Guns, Bow and Arrows, Pistol, 2 Swords, and 2 Targes = 1 man
Haubergeon, Gun, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Haubergeon, Headpiece, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Haubergeon, Steelbonnet, and Sword = 1 man
Headpiece, Platesleeves, 2 Guns, 2 Bows and Arrows, 2 Swords, and 2 Targes = 1 man
Headpiece, Gun, Bow and Arrows, Pollaxe, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Headpiece, 3 Guns, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Steelbonnet, Gun, Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
2 Guns, Bow and Arrows, Pistol, Pollaxe, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
2 Guns, Bow and Arrows, Pistol, Pollaxe, and Sword = 1 man
2 Guns, Pistol, Pollaxe, Sword, and Targe = 1 man (with 2 household men)
Gun, Bow and Arrows, Pollaxe, 3 Swords, and a Targe = 1 man
Gun, Bow and Arrows, Pistol, Pollaxe, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Gun, Bow and Arrows, Pollaxe, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Bow and Arrows, Pollaxe, Sword, and Targe = 1 man
Halberd, and Two Handed Sword = 1 man
2 Guns, 2 Swords, and 2 Targes = 1 man (with 1 household man)
Gun, Bow and Arrows, and Sword = 1 man
Gun, and Sword = 2 men
Only a Gun = 2 men
Gun, Pistol*, Sword, and Targe = 7 men
Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Targe = 8 men
Only a Bow and Arrows = 9 men
Sword, and Targe = 20 men
Gun, Sword, and Targe = 23 men
Gun, Bow and Arrows, Sword, and Targe = 45 men
Bow and Arrows, and Sword = 73 men
Only a Sword = 240 men
Unspecified Weapons = 41 men
No Weapons = 22 men
Depaupent(?) = 4

Total number of men = 523
Number of men excluding those who had unspecified or no weapons = 456
Number of Swords = 449
Number of Bows and Arrows = 149
Number of Targes = 125
Number of Guns = 112
Number of Pistols = between 9 and 14*
Number of Pollaxes and Halberds = 11
Number of Haubergeons = 11
Number of Headpieces and Steelbonnets = 10
Two Handed Swords = 3
Number of Jacks = 1
Number of Platesleeves = 1

* the text isn't clear how many, of these 7 men, has pistols.

Éirinn go Brách


Last edited by Stephen Curtin on Mon 17 Jul, 2017 4:15 pm; edited 7 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Jason O C





Joined: 20 Oct 2012

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2017 5:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is great. Thanks again Stephen.

Jason
View user's profile Send private message
Richard Worthington





Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Fri 14 Jul, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very informative, thanks!

Besides the B.B. Of Taymouth, what other sources are there? I haven't waded through all of the Maitland/Spaulding/etc. Club volumes, but this is the sort of thing they published.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Atholl muster rolls 1638
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2017 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum