Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Regulations regarding musters and militias Reply to topic
This is a Spotlight Topic Go to page Previous  1, 2 
Author Message
Håvard Kongsrud




Location: Norge
Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 60

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the translation!
Pieter B. wrote:
myself wrote:
"[...] zinen helm ofte ysern hut, zine yseren huven, zine troyen, zine armeleden, zine vlekken, sinen kraghen [...]" (1345)
[...]"... His helm or iron hat, his iron huven?, his jack, his arm members?, his vlekken?, his collar

*huven could be translated to cap but I am not sure.

EDIT: Come to think of it iron huven might be a mail coif but that is just speculation on my part.

troyen: I would translate it with "pourpoint", "gambeson" or "aketon" as it sound too early for the term "jack" for me, asscoiating it with a front opening upper sleeveless garment, initially worn to war by the lower classes known by the diminutive term "jaques" (peasants). A theme for another thread, I guess.
armeleden: I would translate it with "(mail) sleeves".
vlekken?: "patches", Commonly translated with "gussets" or "garment with mail gussets fastened onto it", but I would argument for narrowing it down to the separate mail skirt only at this early date. Also subject for another thread.

Pieter B. wrote:
A second legislation from Bremen states the following.

"en iewelk lantman ... schal hebben to ewighen tyden ene troyen, enen ysern hud, en par wapenhanschen, enen schilt, ene worpbarden vnde enen peck van zestein voten vnde kortere nicht."

"And every husbandman... shall have at all times a jack, an iron hat, a pair of gauntlets, a shield, a throwing axe and a pike of sixteen feet and not shorter"

I find the throwing axe curious.
What is the dating of this one? Am I guessing right in presuming this is from the group Derventer Burgerscap citing a 1390 Bremer law from Ehmck, 1883 (eg Ehmck, D.R. 1886, Bremisches Urkundenbuch bd. 4. Urkunden von 1381 - 1410, p 161? The "throwing axe" part do seem strange as no proper secondary weapon is mentioned. It is tempting to translate it into "war axe", a weapon specialised for use in war like we see in earlier norwegian law. A theme for yet another thread.
View user's profile Send private message
Pieter B.





Joined: 16 Feb 2014
Reading list: 10 books

Posts: 645

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul, 2017 4:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Håvard Kongsrud wrote:
Thank you for the translation!
Pieter B. wrote:
myself wrote:
"[...] zinen helm ofte ysern hut, zine yseren huven, zine troyen, zine armeleden, zine vlekken, sinen kraghen [...]" (1345)
[...]"... His helm or iron hat, his iron huven?, his jack, his arm members?, his vlekken?, his collar

*huven could be translated to cap but I am not sure.

EDIT: Come to think of it iron huven might be a mail coif but that is just speculation on my part.

troyen: I would translate it with "pourpoint", "gambeson" or "aketon" as it sound too early for the term "jack" for me, asscoiating it with a front opening upper sleeveless garment, initially worn to war by the lower classes known by the diminutive term "jaques" (peasants). A theme for another thread, I guess.
armeleden: I would translate it with "(mail) sleeves".
vlekken?: "patches", Commonly translated with "gussets" or "garment with mail gussets fastened onto it", but I would argument for narrowing it down to the separate mail skirt only at this early date. Also subject for another thread.

Pieter B. wrote:
A second legislation from Bremen states the following.

"en iewelk lantman ... schal hebben to ewighen tyden ene troyen, enen ysern hud, en par wapenhanschen, enen schilt, ene worpbarden vnde enen peck van zestein voten vnde kortere nicht."

"And every husbandman... shall have at all times a jack, an iron hat, a pair of gauntlets, a shield, a throwing axe and a pike of sixteen feet and not shorter"

I find the throwing axe curious.
What is the dating of this one? Am I guessing right in presuming this is from the group Derventer Burgerscap citing a 1390 Bremer law from Ehmck, 1883 (eg Ehmck, D.R. 1886, Bremisches Urkundenbuch bd. 4. Urkunden von 1381 - 1410, p 161? The "throwing axe" part do seem strange as no proper secondary weapon is mentioned. It is tempting to translate it into "war axe", a weapon specialised for use in war like we see in earlier norwegian law. A theme for yet another thread.



In some English sources the term jack and gambeson are used interchangeably as far as I am aware. The mail sleeves and gussets seems spot on.

As for the axe. It is possible an older word was retained for a new type of axe that wasn't thrown. Either that our the translation of worp is off.
View user's profile Send private message
M. Eversberg II




Location: California, Maryland, USA
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Reading list: 3 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,435

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jul, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Smith's "General Historie" and "A Relation of Maryland" list the 1635 requirement for the St. Mary's militia as:


* One Musket
* 10 pounds of powder
* 40 pounds of lead, bullets, pistol, and goose shot (a mix of all up to 40 lbs minimum)
* One sword
* One belt
* One bandeleere
* match


I don't know if this was an official law, however.

There was an attempt in 1638 to pass legislation requiring the following:

"[E]very housekeeper or housekeepers within this province shall have ready and continually upon all occasions within his, or her, or their house, for them and themselves, and for every person within his, her, or their house, able to bear arms, one servicable fixed gunne of bastard muskett boare, one pair of bandeloors or shott bag, one pound of good powder, foure pound of pistol or muskett shott, and sufficient quantity of match for matchlocks, and of flints for firelock and, before Christmas next shall also find a sword and belt for every such personas aforesaid."

The intended penalty for not having these was supposed to be set at 30 pounds tobacco per default.

This law did not originally pass, because the assembly at the time didn't actually have the right to make law, but evidently was adopted at some later point in time.

Interesting to note a consistent 4:1 ratio of lead to powder.

Sometime around 1666 there seems to be an effort to upgrade some county militias in the area, as the assembly voted to accumulate arms for even distribution to various counties - these are listed as:

"400 pound gunpowder, 4200 pound shot or lead, 140 Snaphance musketts high Culvuer bore, 140 cutlashes and belts, 50 Carabines for Horsemen, two dozen bulletmolds high Culver bore, two dozen Carabine Bullet moulds".

Evidently the local Lieutenant General was supposed to appoint someone to keep watch on these.

M.

This space for rent or lease.
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,220

PostPosted: Wed 22 Nov, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Statue from 1558 during the reign of Queen Mary I of England.
Source [p316-318]: https://books.google.ie/books?id=R7CZMMbcOx4C&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=%22blacke+bill%22&source=bl&ots=VurFE6enu9&sig=MXirzTPzF6q9uYlUtZQo-_GW2aU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiejvKd0NHXAhXGJMAKHcZjALkQ6AEIQDAH#v=onepage&q&f=false

And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, that every nobleman gentleman and other temporal person, after the rate and proportion hereafter declared, shall have and keep in readiness such horses geldings armour and other furniture for the wars, at the least, and in such sort and manner as is and shall be in this act hereafter expressed and declared, that is to say:

All and every person temporal having any honours lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of estate of Inheritance or freehold, to the clear yearly value of one thousand pounds or above, shall from and after the first day of May which shall be in the year of our Lord God one thousand five hundred fifty and eight, have find keep sustain and maintain within this realm of England, of their own proper and at their own proper costs and expenses, 6 horses or geldings able for demilances, whereof 3 of them at the least to be horses with sufficient harnesses steel saddles and weapon requisite and appertaining to the said demilances horses or geldings; and 10 light horses or geldings able and mete for light horsemen, with the furniture of harness and weapon requisite for the same. And also 40 corslets furnished, 40 Almain rivets, or instead of the said Almain rivet, 40 coats of plate corslets or brigandines furnished, 40 pikes 30 longbows 30 sheaves of arrows 30 steel caps or skulls 20 black bills or halberds 20 arquebuses and 20 morions or sallets:

And every person temporal, having any honours lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid to the clear yearly value of one thousand marks or above, and under the clear yearly value of a thousand pounds, shall have find sustain and maintain within this realm, of their own proper and at their own proper costs and expenses, 4 horses or geldings able for demilances, whereof 2 at the least to be horses with sufficient harnesses and weapon and saddles meet and requisite to the said demilances horses or geldings, and 6 light horses or geldings able and mete for light horsemen, with furniture of harness, and weapon requisite for the same. And also of armour and weapon 30 corslets furnished 30 Almain rivets, or instead of the said Almain rivets 30 coats of plate corslets or brigandines furnished, 30 pikes 20 longbows 20 sheaves of arrows 20 steel caps orbskulls 10 black bills or Halberds 10 arquebuses, and 10 morions or sallets:

And every person temporal having honours lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid, to the clear yearly value of £400 or above, and under the clear yearly value of a thousand marks, shall have finds kept sustain and maintain as is aforesaid, 2 horses, or 1 horse and one gelding, able for demilances with sufficient furniture of harness steel saddles and weapon for the same as is aforesaid, and 4 geldings able for light horsemen with sufficient harness and weapon for the same. And also 20 corslets furnished, 20 Almain rivets furnished, or instead of Almain rivets 20 coats of plate corslets or brigandines furnished 20 pikes 15 longbows 15 sheaves of arrows 15 steel caps or skulls 6 arquebuses and 6 morions or sallets:

And that every person temporal, having lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid, to the clear yearly value of £200 or above, and under the clear yearly value of £400, shall from the said first day of May have keep sustain and maintain, 1 great horse or gelding able for a demilance with sufficient furniture of harness, steel saddle and weapon for the same, and 2 geldings able for light horsemen with harness and weapons sufficient as is aforesaid for the same. And also 10 corslets furnished 10 Almain rivets, or in the place of Almain rivets 10 coats of plate corslets or brigandines furnished, 10 pikes 12 longbows 12 sheaves of arrows 12 steel caps or skulls, 3 arquebuses, and 3 morions or sallets:

To be continued...

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,220

PostPosted: Wed 22 Nov, 2017 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And every person temporal having any lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid, to the clear yearly value of £100 or above, and under the yearly value of £200, shall from and after the said first day of May have keep and sustain as is aforesaid 2 geldings able and mete for light horsemen, with sufficient harness and weapon requisite for the same, and also 3 corslets furnished, 3 Almain rivets, or instead of them, so many coats of plate corslets, or brigandines furnished, 3 pikes, 3 longbows, 3 sheaves of arrows, 3 steel caps or skulls, 2 arquebuses and 2 morions or sallets:

And also every person temporal having lordships manors house lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid, to the clear yearly value of 100 marks or above, and under the yearly value of one £100, from the said first day of May, shall have keep maintain and sustain one gelding able and mete for a light horseman with the harness and weapon sufficient and requisite for the same, 2 Corslets furnished, 2 Almain rivets, or instead of the same, 2 coats of plate or brigandines furnished, 2 pikes, 2 longbows, 2 sheaves of arrows, 2 steel caps or skulls, 1 arquebus, 1 morian or sallet:

And also every person temporal, having lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid, to the yearly value of £40 or above, and under the yearly value of 100 marks, shall from and after the said first day of May, have maintain and keep 2 corslets furnished, 2 Almain rivets, or instead of the same 2 coats of plate corslets or brigandines furnished, 2 pikes, 1 longbow, 1 sheaf of arrows, 1 steel cap or skull, 2 arquebuses, 2 morions or sallets:

And also every person temporal having lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid, to the clear yearly value of £20 or above, and under the yearly value of £40, shall from the said first day of May, have keep and maintain 1 corslet furnished, 1 pike, 1 arquebus, and 1 morion or sallet, 1 longbow, 1 sheaf of arrows, and 1 steel cap or skull:

And also every person temporal having lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of any such estate as is aforesaid, to the clear yearly value of £10 or above, and under the yearly value of £20, shall from and after the said day have keep and sustain 1 Almain rivet, coat of plate, or brigandine furnished, 1 arquebus, 1 morion or sallet, 1 longbow, and 1 sheaf of arrows, and 1 steel cap or skull:

And also every person temporal
having lordships manors houses lands meadows pastures or woods of such estate as is aforesaid, to the clear yearly value of £5 or above, and under the yearly value of £10, shall from and after the said first day of May have keep and sustain 1 coat of plate furnished, 1 black bill or halberd, 1 longbow, 1 sheaf of arrows, and 1 seele cap or skull:

Still more to come....

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,220

PostPosted: Wed 22 Nov, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And also every person temporal, having goods or chattels to the value of 1,000 marks or above, shall from the said first day of May have find keep sustain and maintain as is aforesaid 1 horse or gelding able for a demilance with sufficient harness steel saddle and weapon convenient and requisite for the same, and 1 gelding able and mete for a light horseman, with harness and weapon sufficient and requisite as is aforesaid for the same, or 18 corslets furnished instead of the said horse and gelding and furniture of the same, at his choice. And also shall from the same day have find keep and maintain of armour and weapon, 2 corslets furnished 2 Almain rivets, or for the same Almain rivets 2 Coats of plate 2 corslets or 2 brigandines furnished, 2 pikes, 4 longbows, 4 sheaves of arrows, 4 steel caps or skulls, and 3 arquebuses, with 3 morions or sallets:

And also every person temporal having goods or chattels to the values hereafter in this act specified and declared, shall from and after the said first day of May have find keep sustain and maintain such geldings armour weapon and furniture for war as is hereafter declared, that is to say; Having to the value of £400 or above, and under the value of 1,000 marks, 1 gelding able and mete for a light horseman, with sufficient harness and weapon requisite and mete for the same, or 9 corslets furnished, and also shall have find and keep one other corslet furnished, one pike 2 Almain rivets or plate coats or brigandines furnished, one arquebus, 2 longbows, 2 sheaves of arrows, and 2 steel caps or skulls:

And having in goods and chattels to the value of £200 or above, and under the value of £400, 1 corslet furnished, 1 pike, 2 Almain rivets plate coats or Brigandines furnished, 1 arquebus, 1 morion or sallet, 2 longbows, 2 sheaves of arrows, and 2 skulls or steel caps:

And having goods and chattels to the value of £100 or above, and under £200, 1 corslet furnished and 1 pike, 1 pair of Almain rivets, or plate coat or pair of brigandine furnished, 2 longbows, 2 sheaves of arrows, and 2 skulls:

And having as is aforesaid, in goods and chattels to the value of £40 or above, and under a £100, 2 pair of Almain rivets, or coats of plate or brigandines furnished, 1 longbow, and 1 sheaf of arrows, 1 steel cap or skull, and 1 black bill or halberd:

And having as is aforesaid in goods and chattels to the value of £20 or above, and under the value of £40, 1 pair of Almain rivets, or 1 coat of plate, or 1 pair of brigandines, 2 longbows, 2 sheaves of arrows, 2 skulls or steel caps, and 1 black bill or halberd:

And having as is aforesaid, to the value of £10 or above, and under £20, 1 longbow, 1 sheaf of arrows, with 1 steel cap or skull, and 1 black bill or Halberd:

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 900

PostPosted: Sun 08 Dec, 2024 8:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pieter B. wrote:
"... His helm or iron hat, his iron huven?, his jack, his arm members?, his vlekken?, his collar

*huven could be translated to cap but I am not sure.

EDIT: Come to think of it iron huven might be a mail coif but that is just speculation on my part.

I think huven is the same word as modern German Haube which can be either a bonnet or a hood. I don't know which interpretation is more likely in the 14th century.


weekly writing
~ material culture
View user's profile Send private message
Ryan S.




Location: Germany
Joined: 04 May 2012

Posts: 394

PostPosted: Tue 10 Dec, 2024 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Manning wrote:
Pieter B. wrote:
"... His helm or iron hat, his iron huven?, his jack, his arm members?, his vlekken?, his collar

*huven could be translated to cap but I am not sure.

EDIT: Come to think of it iron huven might be a mail coif but that is just speculation on my part.

I think huven is the same word as modern German Haube which can be either a bonnet or a hood. I don't know which interpretation is more likely in the 14th century.


In German, a Beckenhaube is a Basinet, a Hirnhaube is a skull cap, an Eisenhaube is listed on wikipedia as another name for skull cap. If one thinks in terms of shape, and instead of flexible vs rigid, then close-fitting helmets without a brim look similar to fabric coifs.
View user's profile Send private message
Håvard Kongsrud




Location: Norge
Joined: 10 Mar 2015
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec, 2024 12:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Full text of the muster in the 1345 Oldenburg town laws cited in previous post, based on the Bremen laws, Gerhard Ölrichs, Vollständige Sammlung alter und neuer Gesetzbücher der Kaiserlichen und des Heil. Römischen Reiches Freien Stadt Bremen, Bremen 1771, s. 786-848, s. 825, avaliable at Universitätsbibliothek Bremen and google books. I've probably mixed up quite a few 's' and 'f'.

Quote:
So wellich vrowe herwede gheuen scal van eres mannes weghene de schal beholden to voren ere bedde ere kolten ere lakene eren hovet pole der ze behovet in eren kindelbedde dar na schal ze gheuen dat beste bedde de besten kolten de besten lakene den besten hovet pole ofte twe kussene ys dar nyn hovet pole
Storve en man zin wyf de schal dheuen en bedde negest den besten ene kolten negest der besten en par lakene ane de besten enen hovetpole ne en besten ofte twe kuffene ys dar nyn hovetpole zyn lerkuffen unde zyn houetdok
zine houetkam vnde zine huuen zine besten hoyken unde hofen zine koghelen zine workorsen unde zinen rok den besten so hee droch myd spanghen also he ze droch vnde mit vorspannen zinen voderrok eder zinen pyls wellik er de bethere ys zin hemeden zyn nederkled vnde dar in den gordel dar na zine hofen unde zine schoe zin gordel zin steckemesset zin brotmesset zine budele ofte taschen alzo he yd droch zyn vingheren dat hee droch,
an ziner han zinen helm ofte ysern hud zine yzeren huuen zine troyen zine armeleden zine vlekken zinen kraghen zine hals borth ofte lyf yseren zine platen zinen wapen hanschen zine benwapen zin swert zinen schilt
vnde glauen einen schulderketel eynen gropen dar er hun inne zeden mach en half stovekens kannen eynen eyer schapen enen bradschapen ene rosten en yseren pratspyt ene pepermolen ene ryven en par vlaschen zinen morter zin hant vad zin bekken zyn wortafelen vnde zin schachtauelen eyn hantbyl eder eyne exxen zine luchten luchten zine zulveren nap ofte ene schalen welk ere bethere ys eyn zulveren lepel Dyt herwede vnde desse stukke scal men gheuen alze hir vorescreven steyt of zedar zint alzo de ghene de dyt herwede gyst vnde waren wyl an den hilghen. Stunde deser stukke jenich ute de schal men yn lozen vnde gheuen zee.


I'm starting to think this is more about inheritance than muster, but wargear includes (in addition to a girdled dagger): "his helm or iron hat/cap, his iron hood (mail coif), his doublet, his (mail) sleeves, paunce (mail skirt), his (pair of) plates, his gauntlets, his leg armour (mail chausses or schynbalds?), his sword and his shield."
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 900

PostPosted: Wed 11 Dec, 2024 11:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Many medieval languages seem to have had words for simple round skullcaps, such as huvette or cappeline in France and possibly palet in England. https://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-english-archers-equipment-at.html I wonder if huvette could be related to German Haube "bonnet, hood" instead of French oeuf "egg."

I think I came across some 14th century French royal decrees about soldiers in Ordonnances des Rois de France.

Edit: eg. one of Philip IV of France from 1303 for the war in Flanders, Ordonnances des roys de France de la troisième race vol. 1 p. 384 https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1181592/f436.item

and the ordinance of John from 1351 Ordonnances des roys de France de la troisième race vol. 4 pp. 67-70

There are lots of 13th-century ordinances from Aragon such as "Privilegio del rey D. Alfonso X, concediendo a la ciudad de Burgos el fuero real, y franquezas a sus vecinos," Memorial Histórico Español, vol. 1 (1851), no. 45 https://books.google.ca/books?redir_esc=y&id=oJsCAAAAYAAJ or https://humanidades.cchs.csic.es/ih/paginas/fmh/burgos1.htm


weekly writing
~ material culture


Last edited by Sean Manning on Thu 12 Dec, 2024 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 900

PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2024 12:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Before he bought a castle Bertus Brocamp found another law from Bremen from 1390 with the lengths of pikes https://deventerburgerscap.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-14th-century-pike-and-its.html

The Book of the Hirelings of the Republic of Florence (late 14th century) https://www.bookandsword.com/armour-in-texts/the-book-of-the-hirelings-of-the-republic-of-florence/

I have another law from Italy with the length of pikes on paper but would have to dig it up. There have to be many more laws from the Hanse and cities in the Holy Roman Empire.


weekly writing
~ material culture
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 900

PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2024 11:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the AA.

BREVEGLIERI, Bruno, "Armamento duecentesco Bolognese da statute e documenti di archivio," Bullettino dell’Istituto Storico Italiano per il Medio Evo XCIV (1988) pp. 73-122 especially page 112

On 31 August 1307, the Corone ed Armi of Bologna, the office in charge of the militia, declared that: Item quod omnes qui tenentur ire in exercitibus et cavalcatis tam milites quam pedites teneantur et debeant si fuerint milites habere lanceas .X. peditum, et si fuerint pedites lanceam .XIIII. pedum, et si quis habuerit spetum vel ronconem debeat habere manicum .V. pedum, pena et banno .C. solidorum bononinorum pro quolibet et qualibet vice.

"Item: that all who are held to go in military exercises and cavalcades, whether milites or footmen, shall be held and ought to have, if milites, lances of 10 feet, if footmen a lance of 14 feet, and if someone should have a spetum or bill (ronco) it ought to have a haft of 5 feet, on pain and penalty of 100 Bolognese shillings per each and every offence."

Pages 87 and 88 of the same article have a Bolognese law from 1306 requiring the milites to have lances at least ten feet long with a pennon.


weekly writing
~ material culture
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 900

PostPosted: Thu 12 Dec, 2024 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't find armeleden in Grimm, it seems like "sleeve-let (ärmel-et)." So it could be "bracer" (hard armour) or "sleeve / bras" (mail).

Koebler's Mittelniederdeutsches Wörterbuch has

Quote:
armlit*, armelit, mnd.?, Sb.: nhd. „Armglied“, Armspeiche, Armschiene; Hw.: s. armschēne; E.: s. arm (2), lit; L.: Lü 23a (armelit)


I don't see an explanation for what source is, must ask the professor. Will edit this post if I figure it out.

Edit: I think L stands for (research) Literature so that would be the dictionary by August Lübben which gives definitions but not examples of use that meet this definition https://archive.org/details/mittelniederdeu01lbgoog/


weekly writing
~ material culture
View user's profile Send private message
M. Nordlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 03 May 2017

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun 15 Dec, 2024 7:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

HI I have some Stuff from the early time of Gustav Vasa in Sweden

1525 "Westerås riksdagsbeslut om rusttjensten" weaponholding in Westerås

No matter your standing you shall supply 3 men if you have 200 mark rent with good harness("god harnesk") and a horse as good as 24 mark

A free man with 20 mark yearly rent should have a good horse of 24 mark and "drage tyg" [probobly same as drabbtyg from Drabbharnisch or trabharnisch)]
One that has less than 20 mark rent should have good Shooting grear/armour ("skyttetyg"), crossbow("armbhorst") or gun("röör") and a horse as he can provide.

All widows that hold 20 mark rent holds a 24 mark horse and good "drage tyg"
Those with less than 20 mark keeps a good man with crossbow or gun.
If you noticed that rich widows only have to hold armour and horses but no "good man" that is copied correctly from the text.

1525 "Till frälset och förläningsmännen i Finland om frälseskyldigheterna" Basically laws for Finnish freemen and kingsmen under Swedish rule
Each free man with Gods and holdings of woth to 400mark shall hold a horse and harness in the new manner. ... one that holds less should have shooters armour and one good gun or crossbow
kingsmen that have 200 mark crown rent shall hold 3 men ready with horses and harness in the new manner.
This one was kind of hard to read so i might have gotten something wrong

1526 "Rusttjenst-ordning"
Ordering of armed service page found on page 225 of Konung Gustaf den Förstes Registratur.
III.1526
One at 400 mark rent wether that be crown or free rent shall hold 6 good men 3 withwith good "dragha harnesk" and 3 with "staallbogha"(i am guessing it is steelbows i.e. crossbows not certain though) and quilloned spears ("knæffuelspiuth") and hors as good as 30 mark

some letter from the same year found on the same page as above
For each 400 mark rent shall be held for the crown 6 men 3 with "drage tyg" and 30 mark horse with war saddle ("stæksadel") Triangular bladed lance ("glaffuen treeggi") and " stridzhand" (litterlay battle hand).
3 with good shooters armour and "arest"[sic] with 24 mark horse
at 200 mark one well armoured man with armour("kyris") and 30 mark horse as above and 2 with good shooters armour and 24 mark horse

Letter to The bishop of Åbo and Aache Claffuesson about armed service 2526 same book as above page 253
freemen and kingsmen that have 400 mark rent shall 6 good men with needed weapons(weryor) 3 with "draffharnisk" and lances ("Glaffunener") each with a hores worth 30 markand the other 3 with shooters armour ("skytthetygh") stoolboghar(prob crossbow), "spetzer"(pike or spear), "kneffuelspiuth"(quilloned spear) or guns("rör")

Also in 1524 there is a letter to bishop Brask who is instructed to supply at least 100 good men with "tællerör spedzer oc hillarda eller swinspeetz" dont know what "tællerör "is but maybe some kind of firearm since rör is part of the name otherwise spears/pikes, hallberds or swine spears
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 344

PostPosted: Mon 16 Dec, 2024 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
One at 400 mark rent wether that be crown or free rent shall hold 6 good men 3 withwith good "dragha harnesk" and 3 with "staallbogha"(i am guessing it is steelbows i.e. crossbows not certain though) and quilloned spears ("knæffuelspiuth") and hors as good as 30 mark


Is a knaelfuelspiuth/quillioned spear similar to a swordstaff?

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message
M. Nordlund




Location: Sweden
Joined: 03 May 2017

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Mon 16 Dec, 2024 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anthony Clipsom wrote:

Is a knaelfuelspiuth/quillioned spear similar to a swordstaff?


I think they might be the same thing but I personally also think they might be bear hunting spears though I am not quite sure. While I cannot find it now I have read on a Swedish forum that farmers of certain wealth in at least some regions were legally required to own spears for wolf/bear hunting in differing numbers very similar to the militia laws and I know I have read a quotation of the original text and secondary sources referring to the text but I cannot find either.

Scandinavian bear hunting spears from later in the century are depicted and described as very similar or sometimes pretty much exactly like to Dolnsteins "good pikes/spears made from swords".
View user's profile Send private message
Anthony Clipsom




Location: YORKSHIRE, UK
Joined: 27 Jul 2009

Posts: 344

PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec, 2024 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Might be worth mentioning at this point

Hans Mol : The Frisian Popular Militias between 1480 and 1560, 2022

https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/id/e08d1059-d566-48d9-a04f-f9a466ba925f/9789048555512.pdf

Not easy to extract direct quotes from regulations alas but the author covers them in detail in the text in reported form. A lot of the detail is from 16th century. There are details of earlier regulations mentioned e.g.

Quote:
The twelfth-century Old West Frisian Skeltana Riocht, for
example, distinguishes four categories. 48 The first is meant for the wealthiest
men, with an estate of thirty pounds: they were expected to be equipped
with a horse and a sword. The men with goods between twenty and thirty
pounds in value had to have a well forged (truchslayn) sword. Those with
property between twelve and twenty pounds had to have a spear and shield.
Finally, those with less than twelve pounds of property had to serve the land
with a bow. Notwithstanding these categories, a spear, sword and leather
shield were the standard equipment of the two main groups.


In comparison to "bear spears", in the 16th century we can see that the Frisians have moved from spears to pikes but, as an alternative, can be equipped with a "boar spit" (knevelstok).

Another interesting point is the standard side arm is the degen in the 16th century, seemingly still in its earlier meaning of a short sword. The various illustrations of 16th century militiamen in the text seem to show them equipped with what would normally be identified as a type of messer.

Anthony Clipsom
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Regulations regarding musters and militias
Page 2 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum