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William P
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 Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2017 4:05 am Post subject: help with the coppergate helmet.. |
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so a friend posted this question on facebook
| Quote: | damn... is it just me or is saxon just harder to find research for in general.
trying to understand more about the Jorvik village and why the coppergate helm is dated 8th century saxon but in an apparently 9th century viking village in york. and then it has the latin prayer on it so it likely didnt belong to the vikings and there are 6th century carvings depicting almost the same helmet *brain explodes*
if anyone has any resources they could share as always it would be appreciated. |
the goal of gaining understanding of the coppergates historical context is based around the goal of understanding the sort of man who would have worn it, and through that, what would match the helmet in terms of things like sword typology, clothing, accessories etc
Last edited by William P on Fri 23 Jun, 2017 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Lewis
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2017 4:19 am Post subject: Re: help with the coppergate helmet.. |
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| William P wrote: | | why the coppergate helm is dated 8th century saxon but in an apparently 9th century viking village in york. and then it has the latin prayer on it so it likely didnt belong to the vikings |
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Hi William,
The original dating of the helmet was based on the style of writing in the inscription, as well as the style of the animal decorations on the helmet, both of which have close parallels in 8th century Anglo-Saxon manuscripts. Perhaps more evidence for or against that dating has emerged since then, I don't know
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Randall Moffett
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Ed W.
Location: New Zealand Joined: 27 Mar 2016
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Fri 23 Jun, 2017 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Dominic Tweddle's book 'The Coppergate Helmet' would likely be of use.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 7:02 am Post subject: |
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One of my links is actually to that book. It is the mainstay for this helmet for sure. The Yorkshire Arch Trust has it up for free more or less complete.
RPM
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Does it matter when it was buried? Isn't it more important to determine when it was made? Suppose it had been passed down through various owners over a period of several centuries? If it was made in the 6th century and buried in the 9th century, should it be dated to the 6th or 9th century?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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| Posted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Randall, thanks for directing me to the PDF of Tweddle's book! For everyone else, here's a link;
http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/u...Y-17-8.pdf
This reminds me of something that has been driving me batty for years; the dimensions of the Vendel and Valsgarde helms that are given are ludicrously small - kid sized at best. Am I reading this right? I have been wondering if the Valsgard XIV's cheekplates were taken from a more or less normal Roman helmet and repurposed for the Valsgard XIV, with its tiny skull (L. (cap) c.140mm) making them look enormous. Or maybe I don't know what L. (cap) means. 
jamesarlen.com
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Sun 25 Jun, 2017 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Dan,
Of course it matters. It gives a time we know it was around and a terminus. By far the burial dating is also the most secure as we have organic material that was tested an gave more secure time frames.
Trying to figure the date it was made is much more difficult. As far as I know neither the pioneer not the coppergate types show up in artwork. As well we do not have any datable material from when they were made. So we have to rely on less dependable dating for when it would have been created and even in use. So as far as what is a more solid date we have the late dates with few early anchors earlier on. I am still looking over the pioneer dating at the moment. Seems less solid to the coppergate.
That is a great question though. As far as I know no one really is dating it that early to the 6th century date really now. It mostly seems to be sometime in the 7th and 8th where it seems to be landing. Now the question can also be was it in use the entire time from say the 600s to the 800s. I do not know. Even if it were in use from the 600s to the 700s it would be a long life span. Not unique to it though. I am assuming it was made in the 600s and was buried mid 800s as I cannot pinpoint it much closer than that. At least for the style of helmet it seems plausible.
James,
Not a problem. I will have to take a look at them as I do not remember.
RPM
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L. Mitchell
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| Posted: Wed 05 Jul, 2017 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Moffett wrote: | | There was another guy who wrote some on this but I cannot recall his name sadly nor find my notes on it at the moment. |
You may be thinking of Peter Addyman. He co-wrote a 1982 article in Antiquity, "The Coppergate helmet." He also wrote an article the same year for The London Illustrated News.
There are a few more articles listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppergate_Helmet#Bibliography. Tweddle also wrote an earlier book, The Coppergate helmet, but I think it was largely subsumed by his 1992 work.
If anyone needs help obtaining any of the publications, I may be able to help.
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Randall Moffett
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| Posted: Thu 06 Jul, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks that was indeed the one!
I think you are right about Tweddle's works. Older one still has some great info and images but the new one does indeed supersede it.
RPM
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This is a standard topic