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Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
Joined: 02 Mar 2012

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 06 May, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Help With Iron Blade Sword         Reply with quote

I just picked up another very odd sword. About 19 ½ inches long, 4.5 lbs, 13 inch blade. Looks to be all handmade, bronze handle, steel blade sharpened on both sides. The blade has a slight wobble to it and appears to have been made of iron. . It’s hard to explain, but if you tap it with another piece of metal, it rings like a bell. Balance point is about ¾ of an inch into the bronze handle. I don’t think this is some repo, truly appears to be very old and not mass produced. Can anyone shed some light on this?




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Last edited by Rich Allen on Tue 09 May, 2017 5:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Sat 06 May, 2017 11:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

THAT is truly strange. WTF?! At 4-1/2 pounds, I doubt that it was meant to be a weapon. For some reason--I do not know why--this seems to relate to maritime usage--on a ship at sea. Something to do with securing riggings? I'm stumped. WTF?! ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 12:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a modern decorative thingy. Definitely not a Roman sword, despite the superficial resemblance to a gladius.

Four and a half pounds is WAY too much for a functional weapon of that size, and the hilt is much too ornate in relation to the crudely fashioned blade for it to be a tool of some kind - most of the work put into this thing (such as it is) clearly went towards what the maker thought would look cool. I'm pretty sure that pommel at least was cast from a door knob or curtain rod finial, and the rest of the hilt was probably also molded on assorted architectural decorations. (I assume it's cast in one piece?)

I seriously doubt it's older than a couple of decades, at most.

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

I wouldn't be so sure it is *modern* per say. It is definitely not a Roman piece, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily inauthentic. It looks very much to me like a theatrical sword --19th century.
The patina on the bronze, and the even rust, is consistent with some legitimate age. It is also far too ridiculous/dissimilar from any authentic piece that it really doesn't look like an intentional forgery.

Cheers,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd agree that it's some kind of theatrical or decorative piece. Definitely different and interesting!

Matthew
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I agree also, but still....Why build something so heavy for just a 'prop' ? WTF?! ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
Joined: 02 Mar 2012

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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can see why I am confused. It is well balanced and easy to handle, even at that weight. It is quite sharp even it its rusted state. The blade is definitely made of iron, sounds just like a cast iron bell. I think this would be too heavy and dangerous for a prop. As to the casting from modern parts, it may look that way in the photos, but in reality the decorations are very inconsistent. The line widths and angles are all different, the round end is not symmetrical, different sizes. It looks to me like it was carved from clay maybe? Definitely not cast from machine made samples. It looks to me like this was made to punch thru some type of armor. But again, I have no clue!
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's kinda hard to tell from the pics, but is the handle all one solid piece? It looks like it could have been cast from an original that was made from carved wood. WTF?! ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark C. Moore wrote:
Yes, I agree also, but still....Why build something so heavy for just a 'prop' ? WTF?! ....McM

I'd wager real money the maker simply didn't know how to make it lighter, and likely thought "real" weapons should be heavy, to boot.

If it's sharp, and assuming it was made that way rather than sharpened at some later point, it's probably not a theatrical prop. In that case a home made curio for decorative or recreational purposes would be my guess, by a hobbyist or student metalworker. They obviously knew how to cast bronze and grind steel, at least to some extent, but did not know how to make a sword except in the broadest of terms. They also obviously cared more about adding decorative details than about getting the basic shapes nice and clean, which would be another reason I think this was not made for any actual practical purpose.

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You are probably spot-on correct about all of that. My Dad told me that in WW2, lots of the sailors on his ship made their own knives. He said they mostly used cast -aluminum- for the hilts, and some were downright fancy. Others, he said, were fairly crude. I'm just wondering if this is a WW2-era military-made piece. I can't really justify the bronze in that context though...I would figure bronze would have been hard to come by in wartime. And expensive. Question ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Right, it's NOT a weapon, nor was it made to punch through armor.

There are literally thousands of over-weight repro "swords" you can buy today, many of them sharp (or sharpenable) and often advertised as "battle-ready" and such. Such things have been available for a couple centuries. Doesn't make them real.

Matthew
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Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark C. Moore wrote:
It's kinda hard to tell from the pics, but is the handle all one solid piece? It looks like it could have been cast from an original that was made from carved wood. WTF?! ....McM


Yes the handle is one solid piece.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm....just another mystery of life. Worried Stick it in a case and just call it a 'curio'. Wink Laughing Out Loud ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going with Victorian prop.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
Joined: 02 Mar 2012

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Right, it's NOT a weapon, nor was it made to punch through armor.

There are literally thousands of over-weight repro "swords" you can buy today, many of them sharp (or sharpenable) and often advertised as "battle-ready" and such. Such things have been available for a couple centuries. Doesn't make them real.

Matthew


I can’t believe you won’t call this a weapon. Clearly, if you dropped it on your foot, your not going be using it for several days. And if it hit your foot point down, the gushing blood would cause you to get dizzy, possibly falling on the blade. Certainly a trip to the ER worst case the Morgue. Clearly a weapon!
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Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rich Allen wrote:
I can’t believe you won’t call this a weapon. Clearly, if you dropped it on your foot, your not going be using it for several days. And if it hit your foot point down, the gushing blood would cause you to get dizzy, possibly falling on the blade. Certainly a trip to the ER worst case the Morgue. Clearly a weapon!

At least there's only a one in twenty chance of that happening! Wink

I'm going with Victorian decoration aping Roman design, probably as a household decoration, but a theatrical prop is within the realm of possibility (though it seems too heavy for that). Absolutely no chance that thing was made to see action, much less punch through armor. It's certainly a curious find, and I could buy that it was not artificially aged as I don't see a lot of active rust on the blade, but Victorian is as old as I can go.

I'd hang it above the fireplace and make up a cool story to tell visitors. Happy

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rich Allen wrote:
Matthew Amt wrote:
Right, it's NOT a weapon, nor was it made to punch through armor.

There are literally thousands of over-weight repro "swords" you can buy today, many of them sharp (or sharpenable) and often advertised as "battle-ready" and such. Such things have been available for a couple centuries. Doesn't make them real.

Matthew


I can’t believe you won’t call this a weapon. Clearly, if you dropped it on your foot, your not going be using it for several days. And if it hit your foot point down, the gushing blood would cause you to get dizzy, possibly falling on the blade. Certainly a trip to the ER worst case the Morgue. Clearly a weapon!


Then the same could be said for an anvil, or a frozen turkey, or a sheet of drywall. Staplers draw blood on a regular basis. There were no real swords of that size that weighed that much. Period. As you learn more about swords and other weapons, you'll realize that's true.

*Hazard*, maybe. NOT a weapon.

Matthew
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Mon 08 May, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my experience, a -weapon- is an object used by one person, usually as offence or defense against another person or other threat...bear, lion, whatever. Almost -anything- can be used as a weapon...it just depends on the intent and skill of usage of the person wielding it. I could attack someone with a rolled-up newspaper and probably do them harm...not that I would do such a stupid thing....just saying. Wink .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 08 May, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark C. Moore wrote:
In my experience, a -weapon- is an object used by one person, usually as offence or defense against another person or other threat...bear, lion, whatever. Almost -anything- can be used as a weapon...it just depends on the intent and skill of usage of the person wielding it. I could attack someone with a rolled-up newspaper and probably do them harm...not that I would do such a stupid thing....just saying. Wink .....McM


Oh, believe me, I'm a firm believer in "EVERYTHING is a weapon!" Just ask my co-workers.

What I'm saying is that this particular object was NOT constructed as a functional weapon of war. Because it is way too heavy for that.

But you've handled a few weapons in your time, haven't you? If YOU were faced with sudden danger, and had a choice between, say, a reasonably accurate reproduction Roman gladius, maybe as heavy a pound and a half, and this gravitational anomaly, which would you grab?

Matthew
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Mon 08 May, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed 100%. Laughing Out Loud .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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