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Jared McClelland
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 Posted: Fri 24 Feb, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject: Ring size on maille coats |
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I was watching an old video from the Metropolitan Museum of Art called A Visit to the Armor Galleries (http://www.metmuseum.org/metmedia/video/collections/aa/visit-to-armor-galleries) and when showing maille, they show a maille shirt with a ring size smaller than I've ever seen before. The sleeve they show a little after the three minute and thirty second mark has rings so small that I can't even tell individual rings apart. So this got me wondering, how small did the ring size on maille coats get? Did rings that were small in width also have to be thinner?
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Fri 24 Feb, 2017 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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It depends on how rigid you want the final construction. If you make the rings thicker compared to the diameter you lose some flexibility. You can make mail completely rigid if the links are thick enough.
The smallest links I know about are around 3mm
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Fisher Lobdell
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| Posted: Sat 25 Feb, 2017 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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But in the high to late middle ages, 11th to 14th century. What is the normal diameter and thickness? Of said maille.
"Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of Absence." Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 25 Feb, 2017 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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To determine what is "normal", someone will have to take measurements of all mail from the surviving period, and then plot the bell curve. It's probably somehere between 8 mm and 10 mm external diameter. The double standard of deviation probably includes rings from 6-12 mm external diameter, with known samples both above and below that range. Thordeman reports that mail ecavated from the mass graves of the Battle of Wisby in 1361 ranged from 4 mm to 17 mm, with the majority having an external diameter of 8-10 mm. Rings from an armorer's shop in medieval Gomel, Belarus probably burned by the Mongols in the mid-13th century fell into three sizes, 6, 9, and 14 mm external diameter. Peter Beatson plotted the Birka mail finds and some other Viking Age mail.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/mail/birka_mail.htm
David Counts had compiled some pre-medieval measurements as well.
http://armourarchive.org/essays/essay__maille_timetable.shtml
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 25 Feb, 2017 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Fisher Lobdell wrote: | | But in the high to late middle ages, 11th to 14th century. What is the normal diameter and thickness? Of said maille. |
To summarise Mart's response: there is no such thing as a normal ring diameter. What would be your response if someone asked what a normal automobile was?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Bram Verbeek
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Fisher Lobdell wrote: | | But in the high to late middle ages, 11th to 14th century. What is the normal diameter and thickness? Of said maille. |
To summarise Mart's response: there is no such thing as a normal ring diameter. What would be your response if someone asked what a normal automobile was? |
To expand on that, a normal automobile from the 19th century to the 22nd.
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Jared McClelland
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | It depends on how rigid you want the final construction. If you make the rings thicker compared to the diameter you lose some flexibility. You can make mail completely rigid if the links are thick enough.
The smallest links I know about are around 3mm |
Do you happen to know of any artifacts with a ring size that small? A maille garment with rings that small sounds like something I'd be pretty interested in seeing.
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Mark Moore
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I see by your posts that you are mainly interested in the study of historic mail, but if you are interested in buying some---MRL sells a machine-welded shirt with 3-16" rings. Itty-bitty!  Just FYI...  .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional
Location: upstate NY Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 587
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Fisher Lobdell
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies!  I agree with what you said, that there is no "normal" ring size. And that was the answer I was afraid of... 
And thanks for the link Mart!
Now back to Jared's question.
"Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of Absence." Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Jared McClelland
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Moore wrote: | | I see by your posts that you are mainly interested in the study of historic mail, but if you are interested in buying some---MRL sells a machine-welded shirt with 3-16" rings. Itty-bitty! Just FYI... .....McM |
I'm not really interested in buying any maille, I like to make my own when I can. Thanks for the suggestion though.
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Jared McClelland
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| Posted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| James Arlen Gillaspie wrote: | Jared, look at the thread on 'authentic mail'. http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=293...aille+mail
I posted some photos of some 'micromail' that I had to do some work on a while back. That stuff behaved more like some sort of heavy fabric than like most mail. |
Thanks for linking that. I've made maille for myself for a couple years now, and it's hard to imagine how hard it would have been to make maille that small. I had to shrink the image and hold a penny up to my screen just to make sure the rings were as small as I thought they were. I imagine that to be that small and have that density the rings would have to have been very thin. Seriously though, thank-you for linking those images, I think I may try my hand at making maille that small some day.
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This is a standard topic