Longswords on a Belt? -- myArmoury.com

Richard Miller · Posted: Mon 20 Feb, 2017 5:44 pm Post subject: Longswords on a Belt?

I have been collecting for a few years, and studying Longsword (Fiore, Ringeck) as well. Because it's no longer fashionable to wear a sword, I never put a lot of thought into how a longsword was carried in the High Middle Ages.
Carrying an arming sword (about 34"-38" overall) on a belt isn't much of a problem, but after seeing some medieval towns and realizing how narrow stairs and walkways are, I can't imagine that it was at all common to wear a longsword (about 48" or more) on a belt.
I've read that Highlanders carried their Claymores over their backs, and I wonder if that was true on the Continent as well.
Anybody out there know?

Mike Ruhala · Posted: Mon 20 Feb, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject:

They were commonly worn on belts as attested to by much historical artwork. Keep in mind rapiers can easily be as long or longer than longswords.

Richard Miller · Posted: Mon 20 Feb, 2017 10:15 pm Post subject:

Could you post some of the art? Or some links? I'm beginning to think that I'm not saying this right or using an ambiguous term.
Maybe I'm using the wrong word when I say longsword. I am thinking of a sword that is meant to be used with both hands like the swords depicted in manuscripts of the era.
The description of such a sword was "a sword that came up as high as the swordsman's armpit."
For myself, that would be a sword about 54 inches from point to peen.

Craig Peters · Posted: Mon 20 Feb, 2017 10:19 pm Post subject:

Richard,

From experience I know that when maneuvering through places where there are obstacles or the space is otherwise narrow, you can move your sword slightly by manipulating the hilt while it's in your scabbard suspended to the belt. Pulling the hilt up, for instance helps tuck in the scabbard a bit so it's a little shorter behind you. Similarly, moving the hilt outwards helps to pull the scabbard tighter to your body. I would assume medieval people where also aware of this and did it as appropriate.

Richard Miller · Posted: Mon 20 Feb, 2017 10:40 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Craig !
Judging from the sword you're wielding in your profile picture, you have the experience to say that it was do-able.
What term would you use to describe the swords dimensions... I want to be on the same page when discussing the topic of "Longsword Skills"
In another thread, it was said that "longsword fencing" refers as much to the way one fences as to the sword itself.
Have you heard this?

Craig Peters · Posted: Mon 20 Feb, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject:

Alexander B. · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 12:02 am Post subject:

Well, I would say it takes some getting used to and skill to walk around with a sword of any kind on a belt. But I'd say it was part of the skillset required for people who had the privilege of wearing swords.

Some experience:
18th C. smallswords are quite dainty and not excessively long (though not as short as many imagine)
And when you look at reenactments, there are people who wear a sword 1 day per year, and hit everything there is with their sword; legs, dogs, furniture, stuff on the table etc.

And then there are people who can slither through the densest crowd and never catch anything with their sword.

Just like backpacks or those suitcases you can draw behind you; it takes some time to get used to taking up more room and how to navigate the world, and also some effort to learn.

Mike Ruhala · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 12:45 am Post subject:

There are earlier references but Paurnfeyndt lays it out plainly enough.

Guillaume Vauthier · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 1:06 am Post subject:

Mark Lewis · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 3:57 am Post subject:

Here's a nice illustration showing longswords worn at the waist and carried over the shoulder.

Neil Melville · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 5:14 am Post subject:

Richard: let me disabuse you - there is no evidence whatsoever that Highlanders carried their claidheamh da laimh or twahandswerds on their backs (by the way, the term 'claymore' was never used for this sword at the time). The idea is an invention of film-makers. Sorry.
Mark: that is a great image you just posted; can you give us a source for it, please. Thanks.
Neil

Mark Lewis · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 7:30 am Post subject:

Richard Miller · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 12:00 pm Post subject:

Wow! Gentlemen, you all really came through on this one. The information looks to be about as solid as it gets. And thanks to Mr. Melville, I am much more convinced by a native than a narrator.

The art depicted shows very clearly men carrying swords that match the dimensions of swords described in the manuscripts. Men were carrying swords as "high as his armpit" in belt suspensions. As Craig Miller points out something that should have been obvious to me, it would be natural to people of any time period to adapt a skill that was "normal" to them.

As a man who had finished college before Oakeshott ever published, those professors from whom I learned didn't have access to the wealth of information we have at our fingertips today. I often joke that; " I went to high school 5 billion years ago." My old textbooks taught that the earth was as much as a billion years old and the universe was as much as 5 billion years old." Today we are told that the earth is six billion years old and the universe is 11 billion. Wow! I've aged a lot more than I thought.

Seems an old dog can learn new tricks.

Thanks for the education, gents. It is much appreciated!

-Rick

Mark Moore · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject:

Just keep a good hold on your grip or pommel when indoors. I once cleaned off the dining table while wearing my Hanwei Rhinelander belted. Laughing Out Loud

.....McM

Richard Miller · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject:

Mark Moore · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 5:14 pm Post subject:

Not really....they just had less stuff to knock about! Laughing Out Loud

......McM

Nat Lamb · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 7:33 pm Post subject:

I would imagine that class and social standing had a bit to do with it as well. If you were the sort of person who was permitted to wear a longsword around town, it was probably up to other people to get out of its/your way. If you knock over a merchant's goods with your longsword, what is he going to do about it? I am not suggesting that this was a major element, but it seems unlikely that it was never an issue.

Mark Moore · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 8:10 pm Post subject:

If I'm going to carry a sword in a tight, or crowded place(Ren-fests), I like a belt with suspension long enough that I can hold it by the scabbard in front of me. Then, I got a universal-fit baldric and carry was no issue at all. Just swing it in front or back, or carry in front. Maybe not historic for all time periods, but beats poking the people walking behind you every time you stop. Laughing Out Loud

....McM

Richard Miller · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 9:27 pm Post subject:

Harry Marinakis · Posted: Tue 21 Feb, 2017 10:15 pm Post subject:

I wouldn't doubt that longswords were transported on the back, but only for long transits. You can't draw a longsword from a back-mounted scabbard, and even if you could it would certainly entail a lot of wild gyrations.