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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Extremely long daggers Reply to topic
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Scott Hrouda




Location: Minnesota, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 6:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
It is a new toy that should be on its way to me soon. Happy It's made by Craig and the other fine folks at A&A. It measures about 2 feet in overall length, give or take.

That is loooong! Eek!
I assume that you would not use an ice pick grip with a rondel of this length. Is this a safe assumption? Were daggers of this length simply a matter of a well-to-do gentleman saying "mine's longer than yours" or were they designed for a specific style of fighting?

...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped. - Sir Bedevere
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jan, 2011 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hrouda wrote:
Chad Arnow wrote:
It is a new toy that should be on its way to me soon. Happy It's made by Craig and the other fine folks at A&A. It measures about 2 feet in overall length, give or take.

That is loooong! Eek!
I assume that you would not use an ice pick grip with a rondel of this length. Is this a safe assumption? Were daggers of this length simply a matter of a well-to-do gentleman saying "mine's longer than yours" or were they designed for a specific style of fighting?


I wouldn't assume that one wouldn't use the ice pick grip even with this long a blade because such a long blade is very difficult to block using most blocking techniques since even a successful blocking of the forearm holding the dagger will not keep the point of the dagger from reaching you: My dagger and wrestling instructor mentioned this aspect about very long daggers when I took a course last Summer.

Oh, and very nice dagger Chad. Big Grin Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, everyone! I'm looking forward to receiving this one. It should be in-hand late this coming week.

Connor,
I'm not sure if any of the martial treatises discuss the use of daggers of this length. I'll leave that to the more well-versed to answer. Happy

Tim,
I'll try to post more pics of it when I get it. I know I'll do a group shot to update the Daggers in your collection thread. It should be interesting to see this new monster next to all the rest of the daggers. My dirk, which is not tiny at 20 1/4 inches long, will not look so huge next to the newcomer. And I'm sure the new rondel will look like it could eat (or did eat) something as small as my Arma Bohemia ballock dagger, which is very slight.

Scott and Jean,
Checking out the period art posted earlier in the thread shows long daggers held both point-up and point-down. I would guess (which is all it is) that some of the techniques normally associated with a sword could be used with something of this length. I'd also think some dagger-specific moves could be as well. But I'm not sure.

Happy

ChadA

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 3:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My Eric McHugh Rondel Dagger is 25.5" long with a 21.5" long blade. It's really almost like a sword.

You can see it photographed with a bunch of other daggers here:


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Kevin P Molloy




Location: USA
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Happy

What do you guys think of this one?


Very nice and what a coincidence I just received my scian from A&A, almost exact dimensions also.



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Kevin Patrick Molloy
"The Prince of Firceall of the Ancient Sword is O'Molloy of the Freeborn Name"... O'Dugain(d.1372AD)
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jan, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow.
Long daggers are long.

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 12:58 am    Post subject: Potential home-made long dirk         Reply with quote

There's an interesting long dirk in Cannan's "Scottish Arms and Armour" (pg 96). The blade is cut down from a sword. How long, I don't know. 16" blade?

Noting the style of fuller, one could do a home-made version of this by starting from a "ninja" sword blade with fuller. This looks nice enough and interesting enough to possibly tempt me away from using such a blade for a seax.

I haven't seen very many dirks with fullers like this, outside the many Vince Evans dirks with fullers like this posted here by many.



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Long dirk, from pg 96, F. Cannan, Scottish Arms and Armour, Shire (2009). Photo credit: West Street Antiques, Dorking.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Thanks, everyone! I'm looking forward to receiving this one. It should be in-hand late this coming week.

Connor,
I'm not sure if any of the martial treatises discuss the use of daggers of this length. I'll leave that to the more well-versed to answer. Happy

Vadi recommends a dagger whose blade "reaches to the elbow" (is as long as the forearm?) and whose handle is a length Porzio and Mele couldn't translate, which sounds like 40 cm or so overall length. But some of the illustrations show an even longer weapon around 60 cm long (then again, his illustrator wasn't the best at technical detail). I agree that you could use it like a short sword (60 cm is definitely sword sized) or a long dagger in normal or icepick grip.
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Danny Grigg





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PostPosted: Fri 09 Sep, 2011 8:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was browsing through the catalogues at Hermann Historica and came across these 3 extremely long daggers:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm50...b=A-50.txt
Ritterlicher Dolch,

deutsch, 1.Hälfte 15.Jhdt. Lange, beidseitig gegratete Klinge mit gebogener Parierstange und facettiertem Kugelknauf. Mit Wachs konservierter Bodenfund mit guter Substanz. Seltener Dolchtyp. Länge 60 cm.

Google's not so good translation:
Knight's Dagger,

German, 1st half 15th century. Long, curved blade with both sides gegratete guard and faceted pommel ball. With growth of conserved land fund with good substance. Rare type of dagger. Length 60 cm.


http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm53...at53_p.txt
A French dagger

14th century
Long, double-edged blade with ridges on both sides and stamped decoration on the ridges. Slightly curved quillons with marks stamped on the rectangular tapered tang. Round iron pommel, in cross section a pointed oval. The entire length is unusually well preserved for an underwater discovery, the point is slightly corroded and it has a black patina. Length 59 cm.
Cf. Müller/Kölling, Europäische Hieb- und Stichwaffen, p. 177, No. 59.


http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm61...at61_w.txt
A dagger from the Battle of Castillon, 1453,

discovered in Castillon-la-Bataille. Slender thrusting blade of diamond section. Tapered quillons slightly curved toward the blade. Narrow tang, the slightly oval disk pommel tapering towards the top. Length 59.5 cm.
Provenance: Dordogne or Lidoire in the vicinity of Castillon-la-Bataille. So far only three daggers are known from this discovery site, along with a total of about 80 medieval swords discovered there. Cf. E. Oakeshot in "The Tenth Parklane Arms Fair". p. 9.

Danny
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,437

PostPosted: Sun 11 Sep, 2011 10:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

a bit out of period, but we have a few examples of viking seax that are immensely long
these three are replicas made by manning imperial
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...amp;c_id=6 21 inch langseax
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=65 combat seaxes
http://www.manningimperial.com/item.php?item_...mp;c_id=65 27 inch langseax

these id imagine would be perfect for the press of a shieldwall.
in the same way the xiphos is great for the phalanx



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Combat seax with 21 inch blade and 6mm spine.
Elm timber grip with brass end caps.


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Basic combat seaxes
12 inch blade
19.5 inch blade
With elm grip and brass end caps.
Copper spined leather sheath


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373main.jpg
Langseax
27 inch blade with twin fullers
4.2mm spine
English elm grip

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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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Posts: 492

PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2016 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Little thread necromancy here. Can anyone help me identify the painting, context and date of the close up image below? I've had it for a while, and I believe I found it in relation to myArmoury, but I haven't been able to find it again on the web since I first found it.


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image.jpeg


"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

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PostPosted: Tue 02 Aug, 2016 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Can anyone help me identify the painting, context and date of the close up image below?

I don't recognize it specifically... I'd guess by the style that it is German or maybe Dutch, second half of the 15th century.

It appears to be a martyrdom scene... St. Catherine is the female saint most commonly depicted with a sword, but I think this is St. Lucy instead. The sword/knife blow to the neck seems to be common iconography for Lucy and not for Catherine, who is usually holding the sword, or shown about to be beheaded.

Hope this can help someone track down this painting!



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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Wed 03 Aug, 2016 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some other examples of long rondel daggers from some 15th century french manuscripts:







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Mark Lewis





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PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Little thread necromancy here. Can anyone help me identify the painting, context and date of the close up image below? I've had it for a while, and I believe I found it in relation to myArmoury, but I haven't been able to find it again on the web since I first found it.

Found it! It's from a Martyrdom of St. Ursula in the V&A Museum.

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O18975/the-...er-of-the/
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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, nice detective work! Thanks very much for posting a reply to this; it's very helpful.
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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