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Jason McEntee
Location: Northern California Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 22
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 Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 11:19 am Post subject: What Do I have? |
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Last year my father-in-law gave me what apears to be an antique sword of some kind...but I have no idea what it is. Some folks on SBG said perhaps a Persian Quadara or a variation of a Russian Kindjal, but I've not been able to confirm this. Has anyone here seen one of these before? I'm very curious about the history of this type of blade. Thanks for looking...
"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Jason McEntee
Location: Northern California Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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A couple more pics...
"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Eric S
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Jeroen T
Location: Holland Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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I too believe it's a kindjal.
I haven't seem one with such a blade but i like it very much, great find.
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David Lewis Smith
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 7:17 am Post subject: |
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I have one of these in my collection, it is a very good find on your father in laws part. It is not so much 'Russian' as it is from the Caucasus and Black Sea area
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Jason McEntee
Location: Northern California Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| David Lewis Smith wrote: | | I have one of these in my collection, it is a very good find on your father in laws part. It is not so much 'Russian' as it is from the Caucasus and Black Sea area |
Interesting, thanks. I can't find much info on these...one site said they were carried by Cossacks? If I was to guess, I'd say 19th to perhaps early 20th century? What do you know about yours David, and how did you come across it?
"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Norman McCormick
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
Net search for Quadara/Quaddara will give you info re this type of weapon. Hope this is of help.
Regards,
Norman.
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Quaddara (with variation in the spelling) is the Persian/Iranian name.
Bebut is, AFAIK, the Azeri name. They're quite common in Azerbaijan (or, at least, used to be).
In Russian, they are usually called kindjal (which is also used for the straight double-edged blades).
So, perhaps, if you want to know the "proper name", it is necessary to know the region of origin.
There might be naming differences for the curved double-edged blades and the curved single-edged blades (single-edged, neglecting a short back edge). The Russian military ones are double-edged (unless I'm confused by bad replicas), which are often called "bebut" to distinguish them from Russian military straight kindjals.
Some further discussion of these, and similar, swords:
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...e-of-Sword
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...nd-kindjal
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2528
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=58614
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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David Lewis Smith
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| Posted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Go with what Manoucher says as far as names. He really is the expert.
I will try to take some photos of mine to post, work depending. I cannot tell you much about mine. Unlike the bulk of my collection that was bought in the middle east this one was bought at a gun show in Fayetteville North Carolina.
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Jason McEntee
Location: Northern California Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Fri 10 Jan, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Timo, thanks for the links. I'll check'em out when I'm off work.
@ David, I look forward to seeing pics of yours. 
"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Jason McEntee
Location: Northern California Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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The other day my Father-in-law asked me to bring the piece to his house so he could look it over. He said he new some key things to look for to see if it is authentic. When I handed it to him, he immediately looked at the back of the scabbard's chape. After a few seconds, he said, "reproduction."
He pointed out a solder joining the chape together, and said if it was an actual antique it would not be soldered. Was his assessment correct? See below...
"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Norman McCormick
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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From what I can see on the photographs, NO.
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Chris Goshey
Location: Fairfax, Virginia Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Norman, soldering has existed since at least 3000 BC and would have been available to an inhabitant of the Caucasus mountains in the 18th-20th centuries.
One correction I might make in terms of its name, a better pronunciation/transliteration of the Russian term is "kinzhal" as it is spelled кинжал in Russian and the ж character is pronounced "zh." According to my girlfriend, who is a native Russian speaker, the word means any dagger not just ones from the Caucasus.
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Johan Gemvik
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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If that's a reproduction it's the kind I'd like to own. 
Very handsome blade.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Jason McEntee
Location: Northern California Joined: 19 Jul 2013
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Good news indeed, thank you gentlemen!
"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Soldering is an old technology, perhaps 6000 years old already. So soldering (and brazing) don't mean "modern". (The particular solder alloy might.) Also, the reproductions I've seen haven't had solder seams like that.
It's probably a repair (and could be a modern repair). Scabbards get recovered, replaced, etc., and sometimes the old scabbard fittings suffer in the process. The suspension ring mount is a different metal from the rest of the scabbard mounts? Could be mix-and-match scabbard parts.
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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L. Smith
Location: central america Joined: 17 Dec 2016
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sat 17 Dec, 2016 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Russian Imperial issue Model of 1907 issued to artillery and machine gun crews. One of the last attempts to use swords as combat weapons. When the Bolsheviks took over they discontinued it as military issue.
Originals have proof marks on blade and scabbard.
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Timo Nieminen
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| Posted: Sun 18 Dec, 2016 3:48 am Post subject: |
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The 1907 bebut is different. Double-edged diamond section blade with narrow fullers next to the central ridge, different hilt, different scabbard. An example, from http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=832
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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