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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Greg,
Have you actually seen any work done by Medieval Reproductions? This is not an off-the-shelf item. Have you seen this helmet from Manning Imperial in person? Any first hand impressions you may have are always welcome, however, judgements based soley on list price and photos aren't really valuable. Quality costs, that's just the way it is.
| Quote: | | Medieval Reproductions is a very nice armory |
Is it? What examples of their work have you seen? I'd love to hear your opinions since I'm interested in several other things from them.
I actually consulted several other craftsman in the armour field in regards to the quality of Medieval Reproductions work, to a man they recommended them very highly. You see I've been doing this a long time. I know how to do research before making a purchase.
| Quote: | | Medieval Reproductions has about the worst pricing I've ever seen in my life! You can get the same quality of work from many armorers like White Mountain, Knight's Armoury, Manning Imperial, Lonely Mountain, Crescent Moon, and others for WAY less money... Even Halberds over at The Armour Archive could make a perfect example for less money, with his steep pricing, I'll bet! |
Are these first hand observations or just assumptions? Again, I'd be very interested in any opinion you have that's based on first-hand observations.
In point of fact I did contact Manning Imperial about this very helmet. It took them over two weeks to respond to my inquiry, and then it was only to tell me that their waiting time was eleven months. (A spring steel aventail made from butted maille isn't accurate, therefore it's not worth even thirty dollars to me personally, that's why I passed on one for my order with Medieval Repro's.) Pete Fuller of Medieval Reproductions was very prompt and courteous with his replies. Pete also stated that he would begin work on my helmet in April, a far cry from eleven months.
You're right, it is my money, and I know where to spend it.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gregory J. Liebau
Location: Dinuba, CA Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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I wasn't trying to make a personal attack on your choice Patrick, I was just suprised that you'd commission the helmet from them before someone else. Sadly, being a 16 year old, I must be very careful with my purchases. I talk A LOT about products coming from all of the armorers I've mentioned, and have bumped into very few items by Medieval Reproductions, because people just don't seem to be willing to buy their expensive stuff as much! Pictures aren't everything, but I personally take the "Pictures are worth a thousand words" saying into perspective more than most, because I lack the resources to draw conclusions from my wallet, yet... But, I don't base my judgements simply on "price and pictures", as you so blatantly put it. I read reviews of peoples opinions, and will even outright ask people about their comissions or past experience with armorers, if I feel the need arises.
Medieval Reproductions has done some amazing things that I've seen, especially those shown in their gallery of custom work. Astonishing great helms! But, for a helmet as basic as the Gjermundba, I wouldn't have thought the spending of money on their workmanship necessary. I know several guys who are very, very happy with their pieces by Craig Sitch. A couple even live in Australia, and have had a chance to meet him and view lots of his work. I personally have a commission for a Bronze Spear coming in from him in the next couple of months, which I can't wait for to be finished! His backlog is long... Why? Because obviously people are buying things from him! I don't see anything wrong with people having long backlogs, as long as they keep to their assigned schedule.
Matthew Amt, a good aquaintence of mine in the reenacting world, has worked with Joe Piela of Lonely Mountain Forge. He raised Matt and Tom Kolb's Corinthian helmets for them from a single piece of Bronze each. Tom also recieved a pair of muscled greaves from him. His work has also been used by many SCAdians, and is appearing in the Lord of the Rings inspired film "Ancanar" (if that's ever done!). Brian Price also shows off some of his work in his book on recreating medieval armor. His VIking spectacle helmet isn't even $200, although his workmanship is definitely cruder than Medieval Reproductions, but seemingly has a feel of antiquity to it.
I know Halberds and several people who have purchased his work as well. He takes very detailed photos of his helmets and takes time to explain his construction methods with anyone willing to ask him about them. Anyone with one of his spangenhelms that I've run into always seems very satasfied with his work! His creativity is also top-notch, with lots of interesting helmets coming out of his imagination!
I've also gotten to talk to Adam Berry from White Mountain Armoury, and have seen critiques or reviews on LOTS of his stuff! SCAdians are nothing much happy with the stuff he puts out! He's constantly got high quality looking SCA helmets being reviewed by Armour Archive members, and his helmets are something I aim for being able to purchase someday in the future!
I really don't know a lot about Crescent Moon, but have read some conversations between the armourer and clients on TAA, and have heard some good stuff about his Wenceslaus helmet, which has a fully decorated brass nasal and brow, as well as being strapped, and is only sold for $200!
And last, but not least, is Lewis Moore from Knight's Armoury. One man I've had the pleasure of working with lately! He just got me my astonishing Eastern Style Medieval Helmet for my Varangian Kit a couple weeks ago. I think you saw it on my thread at The Armour Archive. The piece is excellently done, and has a full aventail, oculars, and chin strap. Custom made to my specifications as a first for him, as well. Only cost me $280 after shipping. But, he said it would be $325 regularly... I'd sent him a helmet back in return for the base helmet for the new one, and got it cheaper in turn. I also know a couple of other guys who have worked with him, and they agree with me that as far as the bang per buck goes, he's one of the best around! He can't do a lot of the intricate stuff yet, as he's relatively new to the field, but as far as something like a spangenhelm with the amount of complexity involved in the Gjermundba find goes, he'd do a great job, probably for under $200, with another $100 or so for a neck covering aventail, at a guess. He'll also leather line it for free, if he feels confident that he got the fit right;)
I could go on and pick up examples of peoples comments, if you wish. But, I'm pretty sure that there would have been a better deal for you out there than Medieval Reproductions. Quality costs, and just because I'm some kid who shoots his mouth off pretty fast, doesn't mean I don't know quality, sir. Why do I have to see these things to believe they are of high quality, if I can read reviews, expressing the opinions of people who I can trust?
Is that not what the whole grand review section of YOUR very website here is about? Am I not to trust the reviews of all of the Albion Swords you've made, since I've never seen them myself? Should I wait until I DO see ALL of these things before I pick and choose what to buy? I guess I should start taking this all with a grain of salt, if first-hand accounts is all that I can rely on, 'eh? Have you, by chance, seen work from the Armourers I listed? If not, why is it that you're so confident their quality would not match Medieval Reproductions, anyway?
-Gregory-
My Flickr Galleries - Travel, Nature & Things
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...and have bumped into very few items by Medieval Reproductions |
Which ones were they? I'd like to hear your opinion.
| Quote: | | Have you, by chance, seen work from the Armourers I listed? |
Yes, I have.
| Quote: | | Is that not what the whole grand review section of YOUR very website here is about? |
Keep it civil sir, I'm asking for you own impressions, not second hand information that you've picked up elsewhere.
| Quote: | | I guess I should start taking this all with a grain of salt..... |
In fact that's exactly what you should do. I don't expect anyone to blindly accept anything I've written as the gospel truth.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Let me first point out that every review written on this site is from the perspective of an author with first-hand experience with the reviewed item, hence the name, "hands-on review". We're not regurgitating other people's opinions or combining multiple opinions into a larger thought.
| Gregory J. Liebau wrote: | | Is that not what the whole grand review section of YOUR very website here is about? |
Gregory, your comments about our reviews and the reviewing process is absolutely flawed and somewhat backwards. Let me explain.
| Gregory J. Liebau wrote: | | Am I not to trust the reviews of all of the Albion Swords you've made, since I've never seen them myself? Should I wait until I DO see ALL of these things before I pick and choose what to buy? |
No, you shouldn't discount the review if you, the reader, hasn't seen the item yourself. That's a ridiculous comment and something that nobody has suggested. But you should absolutely discount the review if the reviewer didn't see the item himself. Taking it further, i would also say that I, myself, would suggest discounting comments from those who are simply repeating other people's experiences. Would I throw these comments away? No, but I would discount them. And that's the point about this whole thing.
| Gregory J. Liebau wrote: | | I guess I should start taking this all with a grain of salt, if first-hand accounts is all that I can rely on, 'eh? Have you, by chance, seen work from the Armourers I listed? If not, why is it that you're so confident their quality would not match Medieval Reproductions, anyway? |
Personally, I do find value in your post. I want to know other people's opinions on various makers of these items. It's this exact kind of information that makes us all better informed consumers.
However, and I believe (but do not know for sure) that Patrick was attempting to do just this, I would also want to understand the context of your stated opinions. I'd want to know where you're coming from. I'd want to know if you have first-hand knowledge of these things, and if not, where you're getting your information. Why would I want that? Not because I'm "challenging you" as I've seen posted recently on another site when this very thing came up, but rather to simply ask you to state your point of reference. It's these sorts of questions that lead to educated and well-grounded conversations with reports of real information and allow us to weed out the emotional comments and other less-than-valuable chit-chat that is all too common on on-line forums.
Do not be offended when people ask you for more information. Do not be defensive when they ask you to cite references or paint in the context for your comments. Be flattered that they want to hear more from you. If you don't feel that you're able to cite references or ground the info properly, then just say so and we can all take it in with that attached disclaimer.
There are many things that I say that, when asked for more information or to cite a reference, I'm unable to provide more data. I would hope that the person would put my comments in the right context and discount it when compared to other's comments with more grounding. This is what reasonable people do. It's no big deal.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Gregory J. Liebau
Location: Dinuba, CA Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Which ones were they? I'd like to hear your opinion. |
Only a couple of Roman Helmets, I believe. I actually haven't found a review of them, just small bits here and there, like on the Legion XX site. I think I've talked to a guy with one of their scutums, as well. Like I said, never really seen much by them, because it doesn't seem many of the folks buy their stuff these days. Probably a good reason for Pete being able to start your helmet so soon, 'eh? (Haha, just givin' you a hard time!) Their shield prices have to be the most outrageous things yet. The Scuta are very undercurved, and resemble those of Valentine Armoury! Deepeeka has more realistic looking ones..!
I'll return the question then... What type of items have you seen from them? Lewis Moore, or Crescent Moon, in particular. I'm interested in your opinion of Crescent Moon because I've found such little information about them, but their work looks wonderful. I've heard enough about Craig Sitch, and know he does good work. I'd also like to know what you think about Joe Piela's stuff, particularly medieval! His prices are great, and would be very helpful if I could get some stuff from him for the deals he puts out! I know Halberds and several of his clients, so I can vouch for him satasfactorily, as well. I wouldn't plan on purchasing anything from him anyway, since his prices are above my range.
(EDIT: Thanks!)
-Gregory-
My Flickr Galleries - Travel, Nature & Things
Last edited by Gregory J. Liebau on Sun 30 Jan, 2005 5:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Gregory J. Liebau
Location: Dinuba, CA Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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See, you two are confusing me... How am I supposed to EVER buy things if I can't trust what I hear? I can't go to Wisconsin and see Albion's products first hand, just to see if I want to purchase them! That's absurd! Why WOULD you guys have these reviews, if you didn't expect people to take them seriously? I personally know many people via the internet that I couldn't dream of meeting in reality, who have a better sense of knowledge and larger collections than myself. I respect their opinions on matters such as these, and therefore use them as resources when someone asks me a question. Is this wrong? When I plan on purchasing a helmet, I ask people for their opinions. If I get those opinions, and have them ready to omit to others in order to meet their needs for answers, should those get blown out of the water, just because I HEARD them, instead of actually being there? The way you guys put this is very odd to me... It's like reading history, and then teaching it. If I read it, learn it, and then teach it, are the pupils not supposed to take me seriously, because I wasn't there? I'd hope not.
That's the way I look at it.
-Gregory-
My Flickr Galleries - Travel, Nature & Things
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Gregory J. Liebau wrote: | | See, you two are confusing me... How am I supposed to EVER buy things if I can't trust what I hear? |
You can trust what you hear. You just first need to figure out exactly what it is that you're hearing and then temper it accordingly. That's the whole issue of finding out the context of the thing and figure out where the person is coming from, what his level of experience is, etc. Read what I said, as it explains it better.
| Quote: | | I can't go to Wisconsin and see Albion's products first hand, just to see if I want to purchase them! That's absurd! Why WOULD you guys have these reviews, if you didn't expect people to take them seriously? |
I never said any of that. Please read again what I said. You're totally misunderstanding my points. Who said not to take what we write seriously? I didn't read that here. And I didn't write that. I read Patrick say to take it with a grain of salt, which means to wrap it in the correct context: nobody here is infallible or beyond being questioned. It's not gospel and we're not the burning bush. That would be pretty ego-centric to think so.
This whole train of thought is so bloody off-topic to this topic that it's gotten ridiculous. I want this topic back on-topic now. If you want, you're more than welcome to create a new topic in the off-topic forum asking how people interpret other's comments, recommendations, praise, and critique as well as question how to judge hands-on reviews and whatnot. It would be an interesting conversation, I suppose, but honestly, it all seems like common sense to me, personally.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 30 Jan, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Greg,
Nathan has the gist of it. You made some pretty strong and absolute statements in your initial post. When taken at face value these comments would indicate that you have had first-hand experience with the product in question. I'm simply asking you to substantiate what you've said with personal experience. If you have in fact seen other pieces from Medieval Reproductions I would like to here your opinion. I don't desire justification or validation for my own choices, but I'm always interested in the opinions of others.
We're not saying that you shouldn't trust anyone (don't get tunnel vision on this subject please). What we're saying is that you shouldn't blindly accept everything you hear or read. Use it as information, good and bad. Use it to help you make as informed a decision as possible, but don't accept any one bit of information as imperical and above question. Keep an open mind and weigh everything accordingly. That's what the learning process is all about.
This is my last comment on the subject.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Adam Lloyd
Location: Chicago, IL Joined: 29 Jan 2004
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | However, and I believe (but do not know for sure) that Patrick was attempting to do just this, I would also want to understand the context of your stated opinions. I'd want to know where you're coming from. I'd want to know if you have first-hand knowledge of these things, and if not, where you're getting your information. Why would I want that? Not because I'm "challenging you" as I've seen posted recently on another site when this very thing came up, but rather to simply ask you to state your point of reference. It's these sorts of questions that lead to educated and well-grounded conversations with reports of real information and allow us to weed out the emotional comments and other less-than-valuable chit-chat that is all too common on on-line forums.
Do not be offended when people ask you for more information. Do not be defensive when they ask you to cite references or paint in the context for your comments. Be flattered that they want to hear more from you. If you don't feel that you're able to cite references or ground the info properly, then just say so and we can all take it in with that attached disclaimer.
There are many things that I say that, when asked for more information or to cite a reference, I'm unable to provide more data. I would hope that the person would put my comments in the right context and discount it when compared to other's comments with more grounding. This is what reasonable people do. It's no big deal. |
Thank you thank you thank you thank you!! Everybody should read these paragraphs and learn from it. This is exactly the discourse that happens between reasonable and intelligent people. It's necessary in any venue that is supposed to be about education and learning.
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Robert W. Betten
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| Posted: Sat 05 Feb, 2005 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Have you seen this helmet from Manning Imperial in person? Any first hand impressions you may have are always welcome, however, judgements based soley on list price and photos aren't really valuable. Quality costs, that's just the way it is. |
I have Patrick just while you mentioned MI. He used to attend medieval fayres here in Brisbane to sell his stock items and take custom orders and such. His prices are cheap yes but his quality is REALLY good, but more geared towards the reenactment with these lower priced helms. He does make more costly helms which a member of a group up here has which I handled and tried on, it was just a typical norman conical helm with a leather lining etc fully custom. If I remember right he was charged around $1000 AU. With Craig's work at MI the more you pay the more accurate and more attention to detail you get like anyone.
Didnt want to respond to whats being said but replying with 1st hand experience about that particular helm smith. 
*!*
"If the people we love are taken from us,
the way they live on is to never stop loving
them. Buildings burn, people die, but real
love is forever." - Sarah 'The Crow'
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Sat 05 Feb, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert W. Betten wrote: | | Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Have you seen this helmet from Manning Imperial in person? Any first hand impressions you may have are always welcome, however, judgements based soley on list price and photos aren't really valuable. Quality costs, that's just the way it is. |
I have Patrick just while you mentioned MI. He used to attend medieval fayres here in Brisbane to sell his stock items and take custom orders and such. His prices are cheap yes but his quality is REALLY good, but more geared towards the reenactment with these lower priced helms. He does make more costly helms which a member of a group up here has which I handled and tried on, it was just a typical norman conical helm with a leather lining etc fully custom. If I remember right he was charged around $1000 AU. With Craig's work at MI the more you pay the more accurate and more attention to detail you get like anyone.
Didnt want to respond to whats being said but replying with 1st hand experience about that particular helm smith. |
Thanks a lot Robert. This kind of feedback is always welcome.
I've seen a few things by Manning Imperial and I have no complaints about the quality of their work. They were the first contact I made regarding a helm like this. The big issues were two-fold; Their response to my inquiry was slow enough that I assumed they weren't interested so I had already sent the money elsewhere. The wait time of eleven months was unacceptable for me on an item like this, especially when there were alternate choices.
Besides, I've never done business with Museum Reproductions and was interested in trying out a new (to me) maker.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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