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Bram Verbeek
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 Posted: Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Cameron J wrote: | If anyone cares about the outcome of all this...
Indeed, the employee informed me that "the owner" that she was speaking of was the owner of KoA and that the sword was a new sword. I am inclined to believe her on that. I jumped the gun a little I suppose on assuming "the owner" meant the previous owner of the sword... although her vague response is to blame as well. I work in customer service myself and I would have been a little more precise on who exactly I spoke with if I couldn't answer the questions myself, as a customer service representative. Which surprises me, especially since this appears to be a very common thing with swords.
I'm not out to bad mouth KoA at all but their customer service (in my specific situation) leaves much to be desired. Especially since they have a reputation for having good customer service and business practices. Not once has this "****" apologized for any inconvenience or asked me, as a paying customer, what I would be interested in doing to resolve the situation and remain a customer. In fact her attitude has come off as condescending and a general sense of apathy. Very disappointing especially since I feel I've been more than reasonable in my emails (if anyone wants to read them I can PM them, I doubt most of you care that much so I won't post them here).
Anyway, that's not the purpose of this thread. My post was to gain some insight on how to fix this, as I'm new to swords (although I have an extensive background in maintaining firearms). I tried brasso and scotch brite and that removed some. I can still see a good bit and also feel it. Can this tarnishing cause pitting?
Thank you all for the information... I'll try some more of the advice given and update when I have something else and provide some more pics. |
I would like to ask you to remove the name from your post, if there is an issue with an employee, please take it up with their employer.
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Cameron J
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| Posted: Wed 29 Jun, 2016 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Howard Waddell wrote: | | Cameron J wrote: | If anyone cares about the outcome of all this...
Anyway, that's not the purpose of this thread. My post was to gain some insight on how to fix this, as I'm new to swords (although I have an extensive background in maintaining firearms). I tried brasso and scotch brite and that removed some. I can still see a good bit and also feel it. Can this tarnishing cause pitting?
Thank you all for the information... I'll try some more of the advice given and update when I have something else and provide some more pics. |
You always have the option of send the sword back to us for refinishing. Let Mike know (if you call or email) that I said you could send it back to us for a free refinishing.
Best,
Howy |
Now THAT'S customer service.
That's all I wanted from KoA. Just an offer to make things right or at least an attempt made to find out what I wanted to do with the situation. And Albion delivers, when it's not even their issue.
Thank you so much. I've talked to Mike already a couple times within the last few days. I'll email him to get instructions on where to send the sword etc.
Thank you again, so much.
Cameron.
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Joe A
Location: Philadelphia, USA Joined: 17 Oct 2013
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Wed 29 Jun, 2016 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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My guess is that they will spend 5-10 minutes on polishing the tarnished part so it's not a big deal.
Please keep in mind the tarnish will always return as the brass is composed mostly of copper, so keep something available for a quick cleaning after each usage. It's the nature of the metal and unless you lacquer or wax the surface it will always happen.
BTW I doubt the tarnish will cause any pitting, in fact the tarnish is actually good for protecting the metal underneath unlike rusting.
As for KOA, my first order from them some years ago was a large Greek shield with a few scratches on the edge. I was livid and KOA was cool with me sending it back for a full refund. The owner could tell I was new to such purchases and explained that if I was going to get upset by the level of damage I was describing (pics also sent) that maybe I should reconsider my choice of hobbies. I look back at that episode now and laugh as I've received much much worse from some of the best makers in the field, from $1,800 cross-bows snapped in half due to unbelievably poor packaging, to armor made to fit a midget, to "bronze" helmets that were actually brass, to bent sword tips again due to more unbelievably poor packaging, to waiting years for gear when months were agreed upon, to artisans simply disappearing with down-payments, to sword makers saying "I need to change the picture on the website" when the sword I purchased looks only slightly like the sword I received...and on and on.
I bet almost everyone here has a similar story lol.
I've bought a lot of stuff from them since then and they were always cool with me so they will always be one of the shops I check out first when I look for something.
Buying from KOA means you get the item now, buying from Albion means waiting some time to get the same item. I'm sure the pommel was touched more than once at KOA and the tarnish to them did not seem excessive. For the price you paid perhaps they should have given it a closer look and maybe polished it up a bit. When ever I sell anything bronze or brass I always polish it up to a high shine even if the quality is low so folks think they are getting something really cool.
I'm sure once this issue is resolved you are going to love that sword!
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Cameron J
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| Posted: Thu 30 Jun, 2016 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Joe A wrote: | My guess is that they will spend 5-10 minutes on polishing the tarnished part so it's not a big deal.
Please keep in mind the tarnish will always return as the brass is composed mostly of copper, so keep something available for a quick cleaning after each usage. It's the nature of the metal and unless you lacquer or wax the surface it will always happen.
BTW I doubt the tarnish will cause any pitting, in fact the tarnish is actually good for protecting the metal underneath unlike rusting.
As for KOA, my first order from them some years ago was a large Greek shield with a few scratches on the edge. I was livid and KOA was cool with me sending it back for a full refund. The owner could tell I was new to such purchases and explained that if I was going to get upset by the level of damage I was describing (pics also sent) that maybe I should reconsider my choice of hobbies. I look back at that episode now and laugh as I've received much much worse from some of the best makers in the field, from $1,800 cross-bows snapped in half due to unbelievably poor packaging, to armor made to fit a midget, to "bronze" helmets that were actually brass, to bent sword tips again due to more unbelievably poor packaging, to waiting years for gear when months were agreed upon, to artisans simply disappearing with down-payments, to sword makers saying "I need to change the picture on the website" when the sword I purchased looks only slightly like the sword I received...and on and on.
I bet almost everyone here has a similar story lol.
I've bought a lot of stuff from them since then and they were always cool with me so they will always be one of the shops I check out first when I look for something.
Buying from KOA means you get the item now, buying from Albion means waiting some time to get the same item. I'm sure the pommel was touched more than once at KOA and the tarnish to them did not seem excessive. For the price you paid perhaps they should have given it a closer look and maybe polished it up a bit. When ever I sell anything bronze or brass I always polish it up to a high shine even if the quality is low so folks think they are getting something really cool.
I'm sure once this issue is resolved you are going to love that sword! |
**Warning, this is a bit long winded**
I already love the sword, it's awesome. It's a little on the heavier side for a one handed sword but I knew that going into the purchase. It's balanced well and feels like such a presence of authority in the hand. The awesomeness of the sword is what made the tarnishing all the worse.
If Albion can spend 10 minutes polishing the sword and restore it to like new or just better than it is now, that's fine with me. I have tried every method suggested with brasso, ballistol and clp and can't seem to get it all. It's better but still very present. I'm fine if the tarnishing returns because I haven't maintained it, I'm a very anal person and clean my firearms as a hobby, regardless of rounds down range. I'll take responsibility if I can't keep it up and in good condition. It's the fact that it arrived in this condition and that I never got a chance to keep it from tarnishing when it was a new $1060 sword. I shouldn't have spend more money on supplies I don't own to fix something new of this price. I also believe the sword didn't accumulate this much tarnishing in it's 3 day travel to my house. I believe it left KoA like this after being handled by several people. It may not have seemed excessive to them but I did ask them before it ever shipped about rusting/tarnishing and this is the exact email I received from them...
"As far as getting stock in for Albion and Lockwood, we do have a lot on order with Albion but they have a large back log of their own orders and about 70 orders in place for us so 98% of what we get goes right out the door. Lockwood is a bit easier to get stuff from but that this point their stock is still mostly made to order. Quality wise Lockwood and Albion are very similar, the items we have gotten in from Lockwood have been very well manufactured and we would say they can stand up to Albion quality. The real difference as of now is that Lockwood is a lesser known brand. The factory edge on both is comparable as well. Any rust or surface flaws found would be cleaned off the blade before it is sent out, if it could not be the item would be blemished and not sold at full price, so I would not worry about receiving and item with tarnish or rusting."
Now keep in mind, I haven't talked with anyone over at KoA other than the one employee. The owner or manager may have dealt with the situation differently. If someone would have simply said "I'm sorry for your inconvenience, would you like to send the item back to us for a refund or for us to attempt to remove the tarnishing?" then I would probably have never mentioned KoA in this thread unless it was to commend them on taking care of me. Instead I just get a response telling me to go buy some other product and fix it myself, basically.
Now, I've said all I need to say about KoA. I keep getting back on them by responding to someone else's comment and that's not my intention. Albion has agreed to help me, even if this may seem like a small problem to some, and that's all I wanted from the start. So I consider this issue now a non issue. I'll update this thread with a before and after photo/s when I get the sword back from Albion. Let it also be known that I bear no ill will at KoA, and if I see something on their website that I want then I'll probably still buy it. I believe that this was just an unfortunate experience and that it's probably a rare occurrence considering their good reputation in the sword community (all my future purchases of Albions will be direct, however).
Thanks to all who have provided help and suggestions and especially a huge thanks to Albion and Brian at DBK for both offering to refinish my sword without charge.
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Christopher B Lellis
Location: Houston, Texas Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2016 12:22 am Post subject: Re: New Albion with rust |
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| Cameron J wrote: | Hey guys, I am new to the sword community. I purchased a sword from a company that isn't Albion (won't be named until I work out the current issues of receiving the sword like this and it's determined how they deal with the situation) and it appears to have significant rust on the pommel.
I'm not experienced in removing rust and such from metal. Can someone tell me the best way to fix this, or give me opinions on what you would do? I'm not even sure what the pommel is made of (Albion Arn Templar sword) or what type of finish it is.
Any help would be very appreciated.
Below are a few pictures of the sword as I received it.
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s621/reno...ozhogl.jpg
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s621/reno...fjmxxz.jpg |
Some CLP oil and scotchbrite can clean that up easy. You will have to put some muscle in it though but that is no big deal at all.
It will scratch the steel but that can be polished out. It is nobody's fault either, not KOA or Albion, these swords are made of steel that will rust in humidity quite quickly if you let them. All you have to do is keep a light coat of oil on them and they won't rust. Rust like that is annoying but its easily fixed.
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Brian Jones
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2016 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Cameron J wrote: | Anyway, that's not the purpose of this thread. My post was to gain some insight on how to fix this, as I'm new to swords (although I have an extensive background in maintaining firearms). I tried brasso and scotch brite and that removed some. I can still see a good bit and also feel it. Can this tarnishing cause pitting?
Thank you all for the information... I'll try some more of the advice given and update when I have something else and provide some more pics. |
Hi! I wouldn't worry about any permanent effect to the finish. That looks short lived and entirely reversible. What I do with brass/bronze like that is use a soft. damp cloth with a little 'Bar Keepers Friend' and polish it with that, it becomes somewhat paste like and is simple and non damaging to use.
Why I like this over standard metal polishes (for yellow metals) is it will clean up and even the surface without creating such a "mirror glow" which I feel would look less pleasing on your sword.
Looks like the pommel may have gotten some rain or water droplets on it. That generally will create that kind of spotting rather rapidly, especially if packed away this way.
best of luck!!
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Dean F. Marino
Location: Midland MI USA Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 229
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| Posted: Fri 08 Jul, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: New Albion with rust |
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| Cameron J wrote: | Hey guys, I am new to the sword community. I purchased a sword from a company that isn't Albion (won't be named until I work out the current issues of receiving the sword like this and it's determined how they deal with the situation) and it appears to have significant rust on the pommel.
I'm not experienced in removing rust and such from metal. Can someone tell me the best way to fix this, or give me opinions on what you would do? I'm not even sure what the pommel is made of (Albion Arn Templar sword) or what type of finish it is.
Any help would be very appreciated.
Below are a few pictures of the sword as I received it.
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s621/reno...ozhogl.jpg
http://i1309.photobucket.com/albums/s621/reno...fjmxxz.jpg |
Must express confusion. Thread title is "New Albion with rust". First comment is "I purchased a sword from a company that isn't Albion".
ehhhhhh - are we talking about a verified Albion, or not?
In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2016 2:44 am Post subject: |
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He's saying that he bought an Albion, but not from Albion directly, but from a retailer. 
Btw, please don't take this the wrong way, but just because of a little tarnish/patina on the bronze pommel, I wouldn't offer you free refinishing of the sword, no matter am I Albion, KoA, dbk or anyone else. Rust, patina, tarnish and scratches are things that happen very easily and often on materials swords are made of. They can as easily happen during the shipping as during a stay in your closet or on your wall. Every sword owner must learn as soon as possible to deal with them.
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Dean F. Marino
Location: Midland MI USA Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 229
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2016 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | He's saying that he bought an Albion, but not from Albion directly, but from a retailer.
Btw, please don't take this the wrong way, but just because of a little tarnish/patina on the bronze pommel, I wouldn't offer you free refinishing of the sword, no matter am I Albion, KoA, dbk or anyone else. Rust, patina, tarnish and scratches are things that happen very easily and often on materials swords are made of. They can as easily happen during the shipping as during a stay in your closet or on your wall. Every sword owner must learn as soon as possible to deal with them. |
Gen laston ("I hear you"). But there is a bit of a problem with all this....
Is this, in fact, a factory Albion sword? Oh, I understand what a third party may SAY - but are we actually dealing with the REAL, VERIFIED deal?
Just askin....
In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sat 09 Jul, 2016 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean F. Marino wrote: | Gen laston ("I hear you"). But there is a bit of a problem with all this....
Is this, in fact, a factory Albion sword? Oh, I understand what a third party may SAY - but are we actually dealing with the REAL, VERIFIED deal?
Just askin.... |
The pics he linked in the first post show what looks exactly like the grip and pommel of an Arn sword (Filmswords by Albion). Howie from Albion has offered to fix it. It was sold by a well-respected retailer (Kult of Athena). I've not heard of counterfeit Albions, especially being sold by Kult of Athena (where he said be bought it). I'm surprised there's a question of its authenticity. What's your justification for doubting it, Dean?
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Ralph Grinly
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jul, 2016 6:00 am Post subject: |
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There's always the remote possibility that the brass/bronze pommel itself is not of a 100% homogenous mix of metals. That could result in some area's appearing to be of slightly different colours...only subtly so, but that can be obvious in some lighting conditions. I've seen this occasionaly in modern brasses/bronzes.
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Gregory J. Liebau
Location: Dinuba, CA Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Sun 10 Jul, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | The pics he linked in the first post show what looks exactly like the grip and pommel of an Arn sword (Filmswords by Albion). Howie from Albion has offered to fix it. It was sold by a well-respected retailer (Kult of Athena). I've not heard of counterfeit Albions, especially being sold by Kult of Athena (where he said be bought it). I'm surprised there's a question of its authenticity. What's your justification for doubting it, Dean? |
Seconded. Kult of Athena is probably the largest retailer for Albion swords and deals directly with Albion to fulfill custom orders, and one of the top commercial retailers for reproduction merchandise in the United States. Why anyone would assume this isn't a real Albion is beyond me...
-Gregory
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Dean F. Marino
Location: Midland MI USA Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 229
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| Posted: Wed 13 Jul, 2016 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Enough. I BUY from KOA. My point related to a similar experience in Europe, posted on this board.
So - that issue is settled. This IS an Albion. And it is apparently rusty. I don't own it, I can't look at it, but it is apparently rusty.
There - is that better? NOT MY SWORD - rather glad that this is the case . I never ONCE said that KOA was suspect. I questioned the liniage of this sword, based on similar events in Europe - QUESTIONED, not ATTACKED.
So folks? Please get off my ass. Buy what you wish to, I wish you the best.... and have learned that it is simply unwise to ask a question here. Point noted, not happening again.
In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Wed 13 Jul, 2016 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Dean F. Marino wrote: | Enough. I BUY from KOA. My point related to a similar experience in Europe, posted on this board.
So - that issue is settled. This IS an Albion. And it is apparently rusty. I don't own it, I can't look at it, but it is apparently rusty.
There - is that better? NOT MY SWORD - rather glad that this is the case . I never ONCE said that KOA was suspect. I questioned the liniage of this sword, based on similar events in Europe - QUESTIONED, not ATTACKED.
So folks? Please get off my ass. Buy what you wish to, I wish you the best.... and have learned that it is simply unwise to ask a question here. Point noted, not happening again. |
Dean,
It's not "unwise to ask a question here." Far from it. Over-reacting doesn't help. You were just asking something no one else was and we had questions about your questions. The situation I think you're trying to compare this to is a supposed A&A sword (they haven't marked their blades in a long time) bought second hand. The situation here is an Albion/Filmswords product (they mark their blades) bought from a dealer many (including you) trust. It was pretty clearly stated at the beginning of the thread where the sword came from, which is why I (and others, I think) was confused by your remarks. Buying unmarked swords secondhand should invite much more questioning about provenance than buying a new marked blade from a retailer.
And no, it isn't rusty. Bronze (which is what the pommel is) can't rust. It can tarnish/patinate. While that may seem like a semantic difference since both are oxidization, rusting does more damage to iron/steel than tarnishing typically does to brass/bronze. Tarnish is usually easily polished out without removing much metal while rust removal/smooth surface restoration usually is a more invasive and aggressive process. Most tarnish stays at the surface level while rust eats into the metal more. A new product arriving tarnished wouldn't bother me (and has happened). A rusted product would make me grouchier.
What's odd is that the OP says he's polished it and it isn't entirely better. Typically tarnish comes right off with a decent polish. I was looking at the pics more closely and I wonder if it was grip dye that got splashed on the pommel. The color/consistency looks odd for tarnish spots but looks an awful lot like the grip color. Liquid polishes might not take dried leather dye off as easily, maybe? But I'm just speculating here.
Either way, it sounds like Albion is taking care of it.
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jul, 2016 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Howard Waddell wrote: | Just a point of information:
Albion does not use brass on any products at this point (perhaps when we recreate later period swords, like sabers, we may.)
We cast only in a high grade silicon bronze for Arn, Conan, and any other sword that uses bronze components.
Best,
Howy |
Note that my Sovereign that I bought in 2004 with a bronze pommel has developed a nice deep patina that I really like the look of: One can always polish bronze back to a bright shiny finish but the richness of aged bronze is really attractive.
Now, in period the preference may have been to keep bronze or brass polished bright as they may not have the same aesthetic tastes as a modern collector ( ME ) who may prefer the look of patinated bronze.
After 12 years there is not a spot of rust on the blade, but then I'm sort of lucky that the micro climate in my house doesn't seem to encourage rust if I give any steel weapons minimal attention. ( And any minor rust I could easily remove matching the original Albion satin finish with a synthetic steel wool extra fine sanding sponge ).
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
Location: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 717
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| Posted: Fri 29 Jul, 2016 7:53 am Post subject: Material |
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Just a point of information:
Albion does not use brass on any products at this point (perhaps when we recreate later period swords, like sabers, we may.)
We cast only in a high grade silicon bronze for Arn, Conan, and any other sword that uses bronze components.
Best,
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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