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Craig Peters
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 Posted: Wed 04 May, 2016 11:43 pm Post subject: Distinguishing Between Hangers and Early Cutlasses |
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Is it possible to meaningfully distinguish between hangers and cutlasses from the 17th century? The differences between the two types of sword seem to be slight, if any. The only possible difference that I observe is that early cutlasses usually have a scallop shell guard, whereas hangers do not necessarily have this style of guard. However, it is unclear that this is even a meaningful distinction, as I am sure there are numerous examples of swords that do not conform to it.
So, can a distinction be made, if any?
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Mike Ruhala
Location: Stuart, Florida Joined: 24 Jul 2011
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Thu 05 May, 2016 12:02 am Post subject: |
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The short answer is no and even the word "cutlass" originated on dry land. The longer answer would involve specific patterns adopted by or marketed to particular users which might have some relevancy from an academic or even living history perspective but would have little or no bearing on the development of weaponry or martial arts.The differentiation between two randomly selected cutlass patterns at any given time could be as great or greater than the differentiation between a randomly selected cutlass pattern and randomly selected hanger pattern.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Thu 05 May, 2016 4:07 am Post subject: |
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First you'll have to define your terms. What exactly do you mean by "cutlass" and "hanger" and how do the two differ in your view? Because as far as I can tell they're synonymous for all practical intents and purposes.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 05 May, 2016 4:42 am Post subject: |
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I cannot provide a definition for these swords. If the definition is meant to make distinctions between them, I'd be even harder pressed. It sounds like my intuition was right: there is no distinction that can be made.
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Jasper B.
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| Posted: Thu 05 May, 2016 5:58 am Post subject: |
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I always thought that the English word 'cutlass' was/is the anglicized version of the Dutch 'korte las'; with 'korte' meaning 'short' and where a 'las' was the Dutch 17th century word for 'sabre''. So, 'korte las' would be literally translated as 'short sabre'.
I always assumed it to be true simply because it made sense to me (with a lot of nautical terminology in the English language being anglicized versions of Dutch words). I've, however, never verified of tried to check this piece of 'knowledge'.
Would be interesting to hear if my assumption has been wrong all those years.
JB
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Thu 05 May, 2016 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Jasper B. wrote: | I always thought that the English word 'cutlass' was/is the anglicized version of the Dutch 'korte las'; with 'korte' meaning 'short' and where a 'las' was the Dutch 17th century word for 'sabre''. So, 'korte las' would be literally translated as 'short sabre'.
I always assumed it to be true simply because it made sense to me (with a lot of nautical terminology in the English language being anglicized versions of Dutch words). I've, however, never verified of tried to check this piece of 'knowledge'.
Would be interesting to hear if my assumption has been wrong all those years.
JB |
No, it's a 16th Century anglicisation of Middle French coutelas, "big knife". (Very much like the more or less synonymous cuttoe, from couteau.)
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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John Hardy
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| Posted: Mon 16 May, 2016 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mikko Kuusirati wrote: | | Jasper B. wrote: | I always thought that the English word 'cutlass' was/is the anglicized version of the Dutch 'korte las'; with 'korte' meaning 'short' and where a 'las' was the Dutch 17th century word for 'sabre''. So, 'korte las' would be literally translated as 'short sabre'.
I always assumed it to be true simply because it made sense to me (with a lot of nautical terminology in the English language being anglicized versions of Dutch words). I've, however, never verified of tried to check this piece of 'knowledge'.
Would be interesting to hear if my assumption has been wrong all those years.
JB |
No, it's a 16th Century anglicisation of Middle French coutelas, "big knife". (Very much like the more or less synonymous cuttoe, from couteau.) |
So what is the origin of "hanger"? As a term for a sword that one has never actually made much sense to me. And understanding its derivation might help answer the original question.
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John Hardy
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| Posted: Mon 16 May, 2016 4:18 am Post subject: |
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... Double post ........
Last edited by John Hardy on Tue 17 May, 2016 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Mon 16 May, 2016 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Well, I've always assumed a "hanger" is simply a sword that hangs at your side, rather than a foreign loan word.
PS. It's sometimes been suggested the term may have derived from khanjar, due to the slight similarity of the words, but to my knowledge there's no actual evidence of any sort to back up that notion, and since the English term rather predates the popularity of Asian cultural influences in Britain I would think it quite farfetched, at best.
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Michael D C Wilkinson
Location: Lincolnshire UK Joined: 13 Dec 2019
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Fri 18 Sep, 2020 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Jasper B. wrote: | I always thought that the English word 'cutlass' was/is the anglicized version of the Dutch 'korte las'; with 'korte' meaning 'short' and where a 'las' was the Dutch 17th century word for 'sabre''. So, 'korte las' would be literally translated as 'short sabre'.
I always assumed it to be true simply because it made sense to me (with a lot of nautical terminology in the English language being anglicized versions of Dutch words). I've, however, never verified of tried to check this piece of 'knowledge'.
Would be interesting to hear if my assumption has been wrong all those years.
JB |
That's really interesting because it sounds perfectly plausible. However, I think it's a coincidence of sounds and an example of what is called "folk etymology".
Linked words:
Culter (LT, not TL in the middle) Latin for knife.
Cultellus: Latin for small knife
Coutel: old French for knife.
Coutelas: 16th century French for a knife with a machete-like blade.
Cutlass: 17th century English version of Coutelas: a short chopping sword used as a weapon and tool.
Couteau: modern French for knife
Cuttoe is a long knife or short sword, and obviously just an Anglicised spelling/pronunciation of couteau.
Cutler: English word: someone who makes knives and cutlery.
Coulter: a vertical blade that is part of an agricultural plough.
What you see here is some standard shifts in pronunciation. The LT in Latin gradually loses the L which morphs into a U. The English then take the French word but pronounce it in a simplified form and change the spelling to match.
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Daniel Parry
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| Posted: Sat 31 Oct, 2020 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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A friend of mine described it to me as 'A hanger is a gentleman's cutlass'.
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This is a standard topic