Original "Enclosed Helmets/Templar helms"? -- myArmoury.com

J. Kemp

First, I'll say "Hullo" to the forum in general.

Now, onto the question.

Last year I stumbled across a design of early/mid medieval helmet, the enclosed helmet, that I was fond of and I attempted to make my own based off pictures of those that I found in modern sellers' stock.
Now my metalworking skills have improved I would like to try to make a decent, authentic one but I cannot find any photographs of originals to base it off.
While it is true that on the helmet's Wikipedia article there is a relatively clear historical drawing showing a side view that I could use for reference, I was wondering if anyone knew of some actual, physical originals as opposed to drawings.
An example of why drawings are not enough for me to use is that because the side views do not show whether it is a vertical fold down the front of the helmet, or a curve, etc.
Indeed, most sellers do not even mark it as an "enclosed helmet" rather to call them things such as "crusader helmet" or "Templar helmet".
Can anyone direct me towards pictures of originals, or are they something that we know of purely because of historical paintings/drawings?
To clarify, by "originals" I mean remains of original helmets that have survived to the present day.

If someone could suggest anything on this, that would be great.

Thanks

Mario M. · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 11:42 am Post subject:

You require original examples?

Not many of them survive, but here are those that I am aware off;

Location unknown to me, dated 1250-1300;

Helm hung over tomb of Sir Richard Pembridge, d. 1375;

The Dargen example, d. 1270;

The Madeln example, d. 1290-1300;

From Aranäs, Westgotland, d. 1300;

From Bozen, Tirol, d. 1300;

Grafschaft Mark Museum, d. late 13th century;

Nürnberg Museum, d. 1350;

Hope this is useful enough,

Mario

J. Kemp · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 1:23 pm Post subject:

Thanks Mario!

I had seen some of these pictures before but assumed they were great helms.
That significantly widens my choice in designs to base it off.

Thanks again Happy

Mart Shearer · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject:

Perhaps a link to the sort of helmet you had in mind as a "Templar" or "Crusader" helmet would help others respond to your question more directly.

P.S. The "Grafschaft Mark Museum, d. late 13th century" helm is almost certainly a fake. I wouldn't base anything on it.

Mario M. · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject:

J. Kemp · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:55 pm Post subject:

Mario M. · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 3:12 pm Post subject:

J. Kemp · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 3:32 pm Post subject:

OK.
I did wonder if that would be the case...
The biggest thing I was looking for was different perspectives, so I have all those links saved now.

Thanks again for the help, guys.

Mart Shearer · Posted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 5:57 pm Post subject:

Those are helms, early or proto-great helms if you will. Modern slang for the ones with a slightly domed or pointed top is the "salt shaker" helm, due to it's resemblence to the caps on glass tabletop salt shakers. The style generally shows up around the year 1200, although they were preceded for about 20 years by domed and Phrygian topped helms with face masks. By 1225, they had gotten longer in the nape, eventually receiving an additional plate over the back of the neck. Many modern reproductions get a number of details wrong compared to the artwork. The medieval examples never have a cross reinforce over the face and eyes of this style helm, for example.

Aachen Cathedral, Karlsshrein, 1215: http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g09a.jpg

Saint-Maurice d'Agaune, Shrine of Abbot Nantelm, 1225: http://www.boutiques-theophile.com/upload/art.../z1541.jpg (On the bench to his right.)

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4125/7283/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4572/11745/
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473...terium.jpg

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4885/14173/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4784/12575/
http://www.veldeke-kreis.de/veldeke/eneit_III_gross.jpg

http://armourinart.com/122/171/

Chartres Cathedral. c.1215:

Collin D · Posted: Sun 03 Apr, 2016 12:02 am Post subject:

Not surviving examples, but off the top of my head I know that there are a few modern manufacturers of high quality helms of this type that might be useful as reference. Patryk Nieczarowski (here on the forum) makes a fair number that look like something you'd expect to see from someone who stepped out of a time machine after a campaign: see here, here (you'll have to scroll to the right a bit), or this thread. Thorkil also makes a much more decorated, "bling-y" version, seen here.

J. Kemp · Posted: Sun 03 Apr, 2016 12:07 am Post subject:

I was aware that the early/proto great helm was a name for them, but did not think to throw in those names into to the original post to give more clarity as to what style of helmet.

Thanks also for offering the information about it, Mart, as on the first one I made I did put a cross over the face.
Just as much, I was not aware of the name "salt shaker" helm which seems to be the most commonly used way of refering to it judging by Google results.

Anyway, those effigies are going to benefit the authenticity of the project tremendously, so thanks for all the help Mart and Mario!

**Edit**
Thanks for sharing those links Collin as some of those do look like they are based off the helms shown in the effigies, giving me more "depth" to work with.. Obviously it is easier to base something off a drawing with perspective as opposed to a drawing without.
Although, this one offered by Mart does show a lot about the shape, on the guy being stabbed to the right.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4885/14173/

Thanks again!