[Dominic Dellavalle]

First and foremost, as this is my first post here, I wanted to thank all of you that contribute to these forums. I have only been lucky enough to come across them a few weeks ago and have spent most of that time reviewing many of the previous posts.

I have spent the last couple of years learning how to make maille, butted at first, and then working my way into rivetted. During that time I began to take a liking to the transitional period of armoring where you begin to find a combination of plate and maille pieces. Thus began my current project. I am done with the maille portion and, as funds permit, am picking up the plate pieces to finish the suit. I am leaning more towards an Italian design with smoother, rounder curves.

This leads me into my question. In keeping with the time period could anyone suggest a sword that would fit? Ideally something that would be worn on the waist, perhaps a broadsword or long sword as the case may be. It will be at best a worn piece and not be put through the rigors of actual usage. And of course there is always the financial aspect that I must be concerned with. While I would love to own the best on the market, at the same time I feel that taking a second mortgage out on my home is unnecessary to do so.

Any information is of course appreciated and if there is anything I left out that would aid in providing some ideas let me know and I'll answer as best I can.

Thanks ahead of time

[Sean Flynt]

Welcome! If you haven't already checked out the Spotlight Series here, that would be a good place to start. Try these three:

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_thames.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxv.html

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spotxv.html

Note that these articles contain a sampling of available reproductions.

[Alexi Goranov]

Hi Dominic,

I think you have a large choice of possible swords that would have been used during the XIVc century.
If you are familiar with the Oakeshott typologies, types XII, XIII, XIV, XV, XVI, XVIII of the single handers should be OK, and XIIa, XIIIa, XVa, XVIa, XVII, XVIIIa of the hand-and -a-half types would be OK as well.

These are just blade types, and for your purposes you'd have to find a sword with hilt components that could be dated to the end of XIVc (when transitional armour was in use) and have some "italian" character. I personally do not know whether by the end of 14c there was an easily recognizable style of italian hilts as opposed to, let's say, German.

You 'd have to decide whether you want a single handed sword or a hand-and-a-half sword.

There are quite a few options available on the market for different sums of money.

Here is a link to the MRL "Arbedo sword", type XVIIIa, which is dated 1350-1400. MRL swords are good for the money, and there are people on this forum that own this sword and can give you feedback about it.

There are other more expensive options as well. Check Arms and Armor and Albion Armorers . Both of these makers have quite a selection of wonderful, and expensive swords that will fit your purposes.

If you narrow down your search, people can give you a more detailed info on what to consider.

Hope this was helpful.

Alexi

[Dominic Dellavalle]

Sean,

Thanks for the links they provided some much needed additional information. Being relatively new to the site I had yet to realize that link was up there.

Alexi,

Needless to say you've provided me with a slew of options I didn't even realize existed for the most part. For the most part I have spent my time studying and working on the sword's rival, armor, and have only recently begun to dedicate some time to studying swords (or any weapon) in any depth. Typologies is one of those things that I am still getting accustomed to at this point.

From a personal preference I would like to stay with a single handed sword. I've looked at MRL and by comparison to most sites their prices are quite reasonable for me at this time and will most likely be where I make my first purchase. I'll have to thumb through my catalog to see if anything jumps out at me from the time period.

In regards to typologies, and I did try and look around the site to with no luck, is there any link or posting of the Oakeshott types you listed laid out in full for comparison sakes? Something that shows an XII next to and XIII next to an XIV and so on and so forth? Given my lack of knowledge there it would help me in narrowing down the type of sword I am looking for.

Again thanks for the information so far. It's gotten me started down the road to a purchase and has also made me aware I've got a lot to learn yet.....and just when I thought I knew everything about everything, go figure

Dominic

[Alexi Goranov]

[Peter Johnsson]

Welcome Dominic,

The link below will take you to my friend Björn Hellqusit´s sword site. He has a page dedicated to an introduction to the Oakeshott typology.

If you feel the urge to learn more about this (and I have a feeling you will ;-) you should invest in Ewart Oakeshott´s splendid book: The Sword in the Age of Chivalry.
This is the best introduction and overview on the market of the medieval knightly sword.

A short introduction to the typology can be found here:
http://www.algonet.se/%7Eenda/oakeshott_eng.htm

Good luck in your search and may you find a worthy sword!

[Greyson Brown]

Dominic,

I, too, have a love for the 14th century, and focus mainly on collecting swords from that era (though I limit myself evn more by concentrating on 1340 - 1370). I have absolutely nothing bad to say about R. Ewart Oakeshott, but I do find the way he divided his typology a bit awkward. He divides his typology into early (to 1350, which includes types X - XIV) and late (after 1350, which includes types XV-XX) periods. These divisions are logical, and are based on the era of greatest popularity of the various types, but I don't much care for it, as several of the "early" period swords (especially type XIV's) saw use later than the period that Oakeshott implies.

I guess my biggest gripe is that, unless you do some other research, you can trick yourself into thinking that some hard and fast dates apply when they do not. You should also be warned that, as we have discovered here, typologies are very helpful tool for discussing swords (if I mention a that a sword is a type XVa, most of the people here will have a general idea of its shape), but you cannot expect every sword to fit nicely into a type. Nor can you expect every feature listed as being common for that type to be on every sword, even if it clearly is of that type.

As to your sword search, if you are looking to go with a Museum Replicas blade, the European Sword is also a good choice. The peened tang makes me a bit more cofortable, and I just like type XVI's.

I appologies for my long-winded nature (but you'll notice that I am not actually going back and deleting any of it ). Hope some of that info was helpful to you.

-Grey

[Dominic Dellavalle]

To everyone,

Thanks again for all the input that has been provided. The links and information above have gotten me well on my way to better understanding sword designs. I honestly had no idea of the vast number of typologies and some of the traits that makes one different from the next. I'll definately be investing in Oakeshott's book to add to my collection.

After spending some time reading through the links and some searching on the web for examples I too am growing fond of the type XVI design. The one link provided even starts out the description stating that the design was specifically aimed at countering plate and maille transitional armor, giving it what I would call a "cut and thrust" qualitiy if I am using that term correctly.

Off to do some more research. I'll do my best to repay the favor by providing what insight I can about European armor.


Dominic

[Chad Arnow]

[Greyson Brown]

Chad,

Thanks for the correction on the life-span (if you will) of type XIV's. I guess I was a bit mistaken, but I still like 'em! When you talk about the use of XIV's ending in about 1340, are you specifically refering to use by knights? I know that a lot of Oakeshott's dates from the late 13th through early 15th centuries comes from effagies, so that would excluded many archers, sergeants, etc. who might (in one of those historical plausability senarios) have used one even later.

Dominic,

I don't want to de-rail your topic too much. When you mention that you are putting together a transitional harness with mail and plate, are you talking about the early globular breastplates (which would be 1370 or later, if memory serves), or are you going to go with a coat-of-plates (which would allow you an earlier date)? That would end up making a little difference in era, and might also affect which swords would be more or less approriate. Maybe it is just because I have focus on the 14th century, but the 1300's seemed to be one of the most dynamic when it comes to changes in fashion. That is one of the things that I have to point out when people ask how I, a historian, can possibly like the movie "A Knight's Tale." Though mostly a passing reference, that movie points out that the popular form of armour changed quite a bit more than most of us realized. Armour that was common in 1315 would have been out of date by 1340's, and that would have suffered the same fate by the end of the century.

-Grey

[Chad Arnow]

[Dominic Dellavalle]

Chad,

No worries about derailing. The more aspects we touch upon the more I can narrow down what I'm looking for

In regards to the harness that I am working on it will utilize the globular plate pieces including the breastplate, arm harness (full vambrace, open rerebrace), hourglass demi-gauntlets, and leg harness with a demi-greave. Underneath I will be going with an elbow length, roughly mid-thigh maille shirt. No plans for a helm at this point although I will have a full coif.

Looking at most examples I've seen its my thought that this would place the harness close to the end of the 14th century



Dominic

[Alexi Goranov]

[Bill Grandy]

And just to add to what's already been said, keep in mind that Oakeshott himself claimed that it is nearly impossible to truly date a blade. Many blades were recycled and rehilted and remained in use for generations. So, as already said, Oakeshott's focus was to give a time period when we are sure the blades were used, but not necessarilly an exclusive time period.

[Greyson Brown]

Thanks for the info everyone,

I do understand the limitations of dating. My problem is mostly the result of the fact that I am getting out of Iraq soon (hurray!), but I have already shipped my books, including Archeology of Weapons and Sword in the Age of Chivalry, home. That means that I am working from memory on much of this info. I just got a little confused, I guess.

Dominic,

Once again, I am working from memory, but I think that David Edge and John Mile Paddock stated (in Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight) that the earliest surviving breastplate was from 1368. At the very least, you can figure roughly the last third of the 14th century. That would mean you really want one of the swords from catagory II. Like I said before, I have a fondness for XVI's, but XV - XVIII would be aplicable. If you are interested in an XVIII, I have seen more XVIIIa's listed as belonging to your period than other sub-types of XVIII's. That is just what I have noticed though, I don't really care for XVIII's, so I haven't studied them as much.

Regardless, good luck on your harness and sword. I would be curious to know what you finally go with.

-Grey

[Jean Thibodeau]

Greyson;

These classification systems are a great way to help in communicating what we are taking about without having to describe stuff every time we are discussing one type or an other. What some people seem to forget is that if you could have a discussion with someone living in the 14th century about type X or type XII etc .... he would have no idea what you were talking about.

Or if you met a 14th century Knight still using a type X it would seem odd to him when you told him he didn't conform to some classification system.

Yes a big HURRAY about getting out of Irak soon: Since I first read one of your posts showing that you were in Irak I have had a good thought about you every time I saw your name and I wish you a safe return. (Knowing someone there, even if just from this forum, makes it personnal. )