Danish Oakeshott Type XVIIIe swords (& other 2-handers). -- myArmoury.com

Daniel Wallace · Posted: Thu 17 Dec, 2015 9:11 am Post subject:

personally, just reading through this I'm getting interested in D 11695. I did some fiddling last night through an image program, provided that the plate in the initial post shows all the swords in correct proportion to each other, I blew up the sword next to it that Niels provided information on. once blown up to size, I think I can pull a rough estimate of that sword's stats. D 11695 is broken, but - the tips of these swords seems relatively easy to find if you follow the profile of the blade.

I've only got tinkering time to mess with it - so I don't think I'll arrive at any estimates soon if it interests anyone. I think this would come to a decent conclusion of measurements, I did the same process for a two hander in the Wallace collection aa473 which I built a model from, although I haven't had the time to put together my findings of the sword for everyone yet, I think that I got very close to the proper proportions of the sword.

these two handers are pretty unique, at least the ones with the slim ricasso. I would theorize much like the two handers of the low countries, these extended ricassos would be to help keep the base of the blade robust, but a better idea is that there is simply no need for the blade to be present that low to the guard, and your attempting to conserve weight so why not just eliminate the bevels all together.

great findings here - been waiting to see a post like this for a while.

Mark Lewis · Posted: Thu 17 Dec, 2015 7:04 pm Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Fri 18 Dec, 2015 7:26 am Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Fri 18 Dec, 2015 8:05 am Post subject:

Mark Lewis · Posted: Fri 18 Dec, 2015 4:05 pm Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Sat 19 Dec, 2015 4:47 am Post subject:

Daniel Wallace · Posted: Sun 20 Dec, 2015 8:51 am Post subject:

I'll be attempting to blow up the few pics I have that were presented here in the post later today. and with the next few days off from work, I think I can get some rough figures to present.

I have to go back through the post, I've got a few opinions of the ricasso. I attempt to focus and give theory's of the use of two handers by the way their built, and a little by period writing's. right now I've only got ideas to throw out there that may be really off the wall ideas about the this style. something that is really getting my attention is the upturned quillons, very limited in comparison to the other two handers I've looked over.

I'm familiar with the Memorial, and Marozzo, is there any northern writings I may be able to look up that might help shed some light on the use of these swords? it may help as I put a model together as to why they were build in the way they are.

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Sun 20 Dec, 2015 9:37 am Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Sun 20 Dec, 2015 10:48 am Post subject:

I FINALLY found a church painting of what looks like a "Danish style two-hander". A bit unclear if it has a ricasso or not, but the looooooonng grip with the iron threads in bands is typical.
Sadly the painting is a bit damaged right around the cross-guard Worried

. Does it have one straight quillon to the left of the image and what is that round thing? a pretzel??
The art style is late gothic - Dating: 1490-1510.
It is from Roskilde Domkirke (Roskilde Cathedral - where the XVIIIe sword of Christian I is also on display) and shows Paulus (Paul) holding a big sword.

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Sun 20 Dec, 2015 11:10 am Post subject:

Guess I'm in luck.

Weird looking cross-guard on this two-hander (angular break forwards) and without ricasso but with a square (rain-guard?) thingy instead. From Dråby Kirke on Sjælland (Zealand).
Angel with sword (not flaming) chasing Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden.
Art-style is Gothic (1375-1475).
Dating 1460-1480.

And also from Dråby Kirke Paulus with a two-hander (Paulus changes from generally holding one-handed swords to holding two handers from the Gothic Art style period).
Here the artist made at least one of the quillons less angular and more curving forwards. Still no ricasso on the sword.

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Sun 20 Dec, 2015 11:48 am Post subject:

Man, the painter at Dråby Kirke must have had a fetish for two-handed swords. I have so far located 7 and some really weird ones!

This first is from the legend of Saint Laurentius where he is being roasted by Emperor Valerian I - who holds a two-hander with a super-weird grip and a style U pommel (key-shaped).
Another scene (Saint Laurentius brings the poor to the Emperor) shows Valerian I with another (the Emperor can change sword and clothes from scene to scene Laughing Out Loud

) quite long two-handed sword.

Then we have the execution of Pope Sixtus II with a weird cross-guard on that two-hander (performed by a guy with interesting fashion).

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Sun 20 Dec, 2015 12:25 pm Post subject:

I'm on a roll.
Kongsted Kirke on Sjælland (Zealand) a gothic style (1375-1475) portrayal of Paulus with a hand-and-a-half sword with slightly upturned ends on the cross-guard Wink

Dating: 1425-1440.
PS: That is one nice looking sword!

Mark Lewis · Posted: Mon 21 Dec, 2015 5:55 pm Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2015 4:37 am Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2015 5:08 am Post subject:

You could even formulate a hypothesis that some of the Church-painting-Masters portrayed the swords of the local nobleman in the hands of the biblical figures? Perhaps a good strategic way of pleasing the local powers while you had to work on a church for quite an extended period of time. [Others Masters might have just made "generic" swords].

Look at these Late gothic (1475-1550) church painting from Sennels Kirke in Northern Jutland (Thy district).
Scholars are very conflicted about the dating (1525-1550). Images of the "World Judgement" stops after the reformation (1536), but the scene has an inscription in Danish instead of Latin, which points to after the reformation (1536). So I would say 1530's most likely.

These are from an artist that shows three swords in the church and they are VASTLY different. So absolutely not based on "lets show some generic sword" but very specific.
Also I can't seem to find any "generic" way of portraying sword carried by a biblical figure with a specific type as it varies all over the place.

Sennels Kirke is only 5 km from Sperring Sø where you in the 1800's found two panzerstecher's!
Especially the best preserved panzerstecher with the pommel is quite a good look-a-like to the sword Matthæus is holding!

Then you have Phillip holding a vastly different sword which I haven't seen in any other Danish church painting so far - a shortened sword-staff maybe.

Paulus shows a two-hander with cross-guard and ring and with unusual great blade details showing multi-fullered upper part of the sword (Oakeshoot type XX ? or like the pretzel swords ?)

If we say around 1530's then the local manor around Sennels was "Ullerupgaard" - changing names through medieval times from Woldorp (1394) -> Vollerup (1493) -> Ullerup-gaard (1532) - was owned by "Niels Skeel til Nygaard" who handed it over by enfeoffment (Danish: forlening) to Thomas Thomsen (of the Northern Jutland Sehested family, not the one with the same name from Holsten).
In 1532, 1536 and 1539 Thomas Thomsen writes his name "Thomas Thomsen til Ullerupgaard" showing he is the manor resider precisely in that time period of most likely dating of the Sennels church paintings. We know he is still alive in 1552.
Source: http://www.thistedmuseum.dk/Historisk%20%C3%8...ardene.pdf
So maybe the weapons depicted in the church are his weapons.......

It is very possible that Thomas Thomsen (or Thomesen) is the brother of the first really prominent member of the Jutland Sehested family - Jens Thomesen (died 1555) - who was "Landsdommer" (Chief Justice) in Jutland.

Earliest known members of the family from Vendsyssel are Torben (Thorbern) and Thomas Troelsen (written Thruælss) mentioned in 1337.

Sehested (Vendsyssel origin) Coat of Arms from Torben Troelsen in 1337 (here "modernized").
Source: http://finnholbek.dk/genealogy/showmedia.php?...nkID=16809

Daniel Wallace · Posted: Tue 22 Dec, 2015 7:27 am Post subject:

other than the skinny ricasso on these swords, something else that's popping out at me, is the limited quillons.

quillons are usually made in relation to the grip to guard the hand. The further the off hand is back - the longer the quillons need to be to protect the hand. on a lot of these shown in the museum photos and the depictions of art there are limited.

poses a few questions, that gets my head turning.

I did blow up my first pics of D11695 - I did use the sword next to it in the plate from the first post since it's length was known - however the pic is distorted enough that it looks like I'm 5mm too long in the pummel area. original measure was 5.5cm, my print out came out at 6cm. going to work with it a little more see if I can get it a little tighter. although when I full sized the blade, that worked out well for it's with. That came out to 3.8cm-3.9cm again pixilation of such a small image doesn't help, but it did work out to be just a hair broader than the Kalundborg 6605. once I get some basic stats, I can attempt to resize the photo from the museum compare them up and just see what happens. that may give a very rough idea.