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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:09 am    Post subject: 'roman' scale armour and helmet         Reply with quote

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/332984966176375382/ interesting scale armour here, the scales look kinda normal enough, if a bit big, what is odd is the plates around the arm openings

does anyone kn ow where this piece is displayed, does anyone have more information? is it genuine?

the helmet looks more normal so im not worried about that one though i cant quite place the period
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

H. Russell Robison says the armor was "assembled in 1934 from pieces said to have been found by Lake Trasimene." That's *said* to have been found... No telling what the date might be, though there's nothing I can see that would prevent the scales from being Roman. The pieces at the shoulders, neck, and armholes may be pure guesswork, or modern fabrications.

This is in the Royal Ontario Museum in Canada.

The helmet is a fake, I'd say. Maybe Victorian, but not Roman.

Matthew
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: 'roman' scale armour and helmet         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/332984966176375382/ interesting scale armour here, the scales look kinda normal enough, if a bit big, what is odd is the plates around the arm openings

does anyone kn ow where this piece is displayed, does anyone have more information? is it genuine?

the helmet looks more normal so im not worried about that one though i cant quite place the period


It is supposed to be in the Royal Ontario Museum, Canada.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: 'roman' scale armour and helmet         Reply with quote

Here is a link to some info on these items from the museum.

https://www.rom.on.ca/en/blog/fact-falsehood-in-ancient-roman-and-greek-objects
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 7:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scales that large are usually used on horses. They probably didn't come from a corselet. The neck and shoulder pieces don't belong.
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are photos I snapped of it and the displayed description a couple of years ago.

-Gregory



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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aha! Thanks guys! Presumably that all happened since Robinson was published. Good to know the ROM is on top of things.

Hey, why aren't all those *real* Roman scales in the display case?

Matthew
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 16 Aug, 2015 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From the museum.


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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 277

PostPosted: Tue 18 Aug, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yale Univercity has the Dura-Europas scales: http://artgallery.yale.edu/collection/search
Do a search for Syrian scales. There's probably 50 pages of scales here.

Some measurements for the big scales:
W 4.7cm L 8cm
W 4.7cm L 7.9cm
W 4.7cm L 6.5cm
W 4.3cm L 5.9cm
W 3.7cm L 4.8cm
W 3.3cm L 5.2cm
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Aug, 2015 8:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nice link, Len! A search for "armor" yields over 1400 hits.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Anton de Vries





Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Mon 07 Dec, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actual Roman scales from the museum (Allard Pierson Museum, Amsterdam) where I work.
For a sense of "scale": it's the middle patch in the background of picture 2.
Sadly I have no info other than that it's Roman.



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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Dec, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Speaking of, I saw two examples of Roman "scale armour" (I would argue both examples appear to be lamellar) at the Archaeological Museum of Zagreb a few months back... The following information is presented on museum display cards.

"Scale armour, Sisak (Siscia), 1st century AD"


"Scale armour fragment, Sotin (Cornacum), late 2nd - 3rd century AD"
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2015 6:04 am    Post subject: 'Roman' scale armour and helmet         Reply with quote


The Trasimeno armour, nicknamed the Legolas armour for having scales just like the armour worn by Legolas (Orlando Bloom) in the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit films.
No one knows who the original wearer is until now.
Roman legionaries don't wear such thing, though.

“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”

- Marcus Aurelius
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The early 3rd century a.d. Roman scale fragment from Carpow, Scotland still attached to linen twill backing, 6-holes per scale.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2341710/Carpow-Roman-Fort


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2015 7:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
The early 3rd century a.d. Roman scale fragment from Carpow, Scotland still attached to linen twill backing, 6-holes per scale.


Awesome. That looks a lot like the example I posted from Sisak. I bet this was rather attractive stuff... I don't research Roman reenactment much any more, so can't say whether there are people out there reproducing this sort of scale with accuracy. Would be neat to see!

-Gregory
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2015 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 'Roman' scale armour and helmet         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
The Trasimeno armour, nicknamed the Legolas armour for having scales just like the armour worn by Legolas (Orlando Bloom) in the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit films.
No one knows who the original wearer is until now.
Roman legionaries don't wear such thing, though.

Nobody wore such a thing. This armour is either a dodgy reconstruction or a fake.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Sun 20 Dec, 2015 5:20 pm    Post subject: 'Roman' scale armour and helmet         Reply with quote

I guess that's the truth behind the Trasimeno armour. Wink
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”

- Marcus Aurelius
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M. Lanteigne




Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Joined: 16 Oct 2011

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PostPosted: Mon 21 Dec, 2015 5:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This armour from the ROM had been known to be an incorrect attribution to the Roman army for a while. At least for 2 or 3 years. They seem to keep it there out of embarrassment.
"Iron Sharpens Iron"
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Dec, 2015 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are we sure it is not used by a non roman group Dan? Do you think in art when they have such depictions they are just artistic style?
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Tue 22 Dec, 2015 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Are we sure it is not used by a non roman group Dan? Do you think in art when they have such depictions they are just artistic style?


I think he only meant this particular cuirass! "Dodgy" is a good word for its size and construction.

Matthew
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