[Sean Flynt]

I have found conflicting information about pronunciation of many arms & armour terms. Here are two that are especially vexing:

Sallet
Burgonet

I used to pronounce these Sa-láy and Bur-zho-nét (I've just recently seen the latter also described as Bur-zho-náy), but my giant Webster's unabridged dictionary records the pronunciations as Sá-leht and Burg-oh-nét. This makes sense because the Spanish word for Sallet is Celata, a bit closer to the dictionary's pronunciation of Sallet. Since the Burgonet takes its name from Burgundy, that also seems like a point for Mr. Webster.

I suspect that there are simply anglicized and non-anglicized pronunciations, but I'd like to know which pronunciations are standard in academic arms & armour study. Anybody?

[Nathan Robinson]

If you're in England or using English forms of pronunciation, you can follow the long-standing tradition of Anglicizing every word. In this case you’d use a hard “t” sound with these things: like the word “Inter-net”. If you use a pronunciation closer to the word’s origin, you’d use the form sounding as though it ends with a “nay” sound. Personally, I say “Bur-zho-náy” and “Sa-láy”. Others do not. Both are used.

[Sean Flynt]

Thanks, Nathan. Tomayto, tomahto....
Good to know.

[Andrew Fox]

"Sallet" is an anglicization of the French "sallade" or Italian "celata", so it is properly pronounced like it looks. I wasn't sure about burgonet, but a quick trip to the American Heritage College Dictionary reveals that "burgonet" is yet another English phoneticization of a French word, this time from "bourguignotte", so it too is pronounced with the final "t". Since both French words end with a hard constonant, then it follows that their English versions probably should too. As Nathan points out, they're both commonly used regardless of what's "correct" so it's a matter of personal preference.

[Sean Flynt]

Thanks, Andrew!

[David R. Glier]

Indeed. Also gortet and armet, along with dozens of other armor bits. I decided early on that I was an english-speaker, my ancestors anglicized them, so by damme I'd anglacize them! But yes, the english/french pronunciation argument is very common.

[Andrew Fox]

I didn't think about armet--I've always for pronounced it "ar-may", but you inspired me to dig into our copy of the OED (compact version, complete with magnifying glass in a little drawer), which says that armet is from Old French "armette", so there's that hard T again. I think "ar-may" sounds better than "ar-met" though.

[Nathan Robinson]

This goes to show that just because people use different forms of pronunciation, it doesn't make them correct. I had better change the way I say many of these words! I have a mishmash of pronunciations, myself. Time to clean it up.

[Scott H.]

Yeah Nathan, you're such a gutter-mouth.

(joking)

[Greyson Brown]

Well, I'm glad I read these before I corrected someone's pronunciation. I pronounce a couple of those correctly, but mostly through luck (or laziness, if we want to be honest), and apparently not through any actual knowledge, it would seem.

Now, if only I had actually read the dictionary (as I have often been accused of doing), I would have known better.

-Grey

P.S. If you are considering readin the dictionary, I advise against it. The thesaurus is a much livelier read, and, I find, more usefully on a dailly basis.

[Nathan Robinson]

Brian W. Rainey was nice enough to send this to me after a brief email discussion about it:

[Jean Thibodeau]

Having French as my first language does influence the way I pronounce some of these terms although when thinking in English I tend to Anglisize my pronounciation even when the word is of French origing. Sometimes it just means that I get it wrong in both languages ......... LOL. Very confusing at times.

[Gordon Frye]

Nathan, interesting that Brian should point that out. A friend recently visited the Wallace and because he had written in advance got the "back room tour". He said that while he pronounced the helmet "Burgonay" the curator said "Burgonette"... and pointed out the different pronunciation to him in a fairly pointed way.

We silly Yanks, saying things the way we THINK the French OUGHT to say them, LOL!

Oh, and Jean, that reminds me of a college class I took in Mexican History... some of the students asked if they could write the midterm in Spanish, the professor said sure... and when he returned the corrected tests, he said "Congratulations! You are my first class that is illiterate in two languages!"

Cheers,

Gordon

[James Aldrich]

I don't know whether it extends to the British, but we U.S. types foster the affectation of inappropriately "Frenchifying" words. An example on which I have had many a fruitless discussion is "gorget." Among re-enactors [who have the most occasions to use the word] it is usually pronounced "gor-zhay'." A trip to the OED will demonstrate the error of this usage. It's not merely a matter of convention; the etymology of the word supports the proper pronunciation.

You can always tell a re-enactor, but you can't tell him much.

JSA

[Sean Flynt]

[Jean Thibodeau]

James;

I could be wrong here but trying to sound it out phonetically: Gor- Zhay doesn't sound like a French approximation of the word to me. I see a lot of the letter Z in these attempts and the sound in French would not sound as if there was a Z in it.

Trying to explain this with type written words is sort of frustrating as it is difficult to convey the right sound on this written medium.

There are some conventions to do this used by linguist that I don't know so I will try to explain how, I , as a French speaker would pronounce it. (Not necesseraly the way a French expert in armour might.)

First GORGET comes from the word gorge which translates as throat: The "get" part is soft and the T is silent.

GOR-JAY is closer but not hard as in JAY-walking: So if you pronouce JAY like this you are doing it wrong.

If you are familiiar with the pronounciation of È: GOR- GÈ would be closer, what makes this difficult is that there is no sound in English that is an exact match to the sound in French.

Isn't this a problem similar to Japanese people who have difficulty with the R sound since it doesn't exist in their language and because they were not exposed to the sound while young have trouble not only in pronouncing word with R sounds in it but may even have problems perceiving it: A kind of selective deafness here.

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit and is not more confusing than useful...............LOL.

[Gordon Frye]

[Sean Flynt]

That helps a great deal, because it confirms the Webster's unabridged pronuciation key for the word. And if its pronunciation of Burgonet is correct, then I'm assuming that its pronunciation keys for the other arms & armour terms also are correct. Ahhhh, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow....

[Jean Thibodeau]

Gordon;

I agree with most of your explanations: The hard G and soft g is very well explained, but as a French speaker when speaking French I would consider the T at the end as silent, at least not hard T, but it does affect the way the E is pronounced.
If it didn't you would have Gorge or troath again as opposed to Gorget / Troath protector.

If you are pronoucing Gorget the GET the same as in FORGET than you are using an English way of pronouncing it.

Now as a French speaker using an English pronounciation of the word I might well pronouce the T at the end of Gorget.
(Basically respecting a long English tradition of pronouncing it WRONG! ..........LOL.)

Could be wrong, but this makes sense to me in every day French.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Sean;

Burgonet: I would pronouce this with the hard T as it is an English word as far as I can tell that corresponds to the French
Bourguignotte.

Now it would be nice if everything was nice and neet and that since Burgonet uses a hard T then Gorget or any other French word ending in T should also have a hard T. Sorry, but French is full of inconsistancies with exceptions to the rules and exceptions to the exceptions.