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Zach Gordon
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 Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject: Pawn Stars --Sunday Funday-- Executioners Sword |
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Hey yall,
I just turned on the history channel series Pawn Stars, episode Sunday Funday.
They had an executioners sword that their expert determined is fake. I can't find photos, however perhaps someone else can. Here is the full episode, you can skip around to find the sword: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YOeQKwfyWz0
He determined it was fake because it was ground... Which so were historical swords. It also has a fuller that terminates below the guard, uncommon... But some 16th century originals feature this.
Anyone else think this 'expert' might be wrong?
Thanks!
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Your link requires people pay for the episode. Bummer.
Who was the expert in this episode?
In the early seasons, their expert was really bad. He has a Web site with items for sale and most are improperly identified. There are quite a number of modern-made things that have been aged, including some lesser known items that I also owned. I wrote to him several times notifying him of it and never received a response. Of course, the items remained for sale on his site.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Sat 17 Jan, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Season 8 episode 32 The expert is Craig Gotlieb
http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/about.asp
His main concern was his opinion it had been artificially aged, as the blade showed more wear than the hilt and that he thought perhaps some acid had hit the brass hilt leaving spots. Reputed to be 1680. It does have some very worn etched marks.
It is uploaded to many of the file sharing sites (watch out for the pop-ups) Gorillavid, Vodlocker, etc.
Cheers
GC
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Olivier de Rancourt
Location: Québec Joined: 05 Oct 2014
Posts: 16
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 2:43 am Post subject: |
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Well, at least the style of the markings on the blade - "Iustitia", a small Maltese cross, a large Blind Justice figure - looks quite plausible for 1680 to me, as does the overall design of the sword, but it could of course be a good fake, or a Victorian composite...
One thing I can say for sure is that this man should not be allowed to handle sharp objects around other people! It's no small wonder nobody got hurt, the way he kept waving the sword around and even at the customer. 
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Jouni V.
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 4:03 am Post subject: |
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When seeing the sword in the episode, my gut feeling screamed "fake!" right away...
That being said, Pawn Stars, like practically all "reality" television shows these days, is 100% scripted. Everything on it is "fake", even if it's "real", if you know what I mean. The experts say what they are scripted to say (regardless of what the real facts are), the items are what the production team happened to find, the prices for the items are what the makers of the show want them to be... etc. It's just entertainment, not education or fact.
In this case, I'd say the sword is artificially aged, and the "expert" is correct. Even so, I think if it were a real pawn shop situation, they would offer some money (though not a lot) for it, because it's an interesting looking item even if it is "fake".
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: |
In the early seasons, their expert was really bad. He has a Web site with items for sale and most are improperly identified. There are quite a number of modern-made things that have been aged, including some lesser known items that I also owned. I wrote to him several times notifying him of it and never received a response. Of course, the items remained for sale on his site. |
I assume you are referring to the guy who owns Tortuga Trading in Vegas. I noticed he has not been around for awhile.
I think the sword is a fake. The owner did not mention details about provenance or what he paid for it which does not necessarily mean anything nor did Rick ask, other than if the owner had documentation, at least on camera. It just looked fake to me.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Just to be clear, Craig Gotlieb is the the expert that I had mentioned in the previous post. |
I thought it was Sean from Tortuga Trading that you had an issue with, not Craig Gottlieb.
See here: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20664 .
| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Many of the things on Tortuga Trading company are mislabeled as being antique when they are modern-made (20th century) items. I've emailed Sean, the proprietor, multiple times with photos and information and he's never responded. Some items are 1990s Kolombotovich or J.F. Schroeder pieces, others are from elsewhere. Either way, take the descriptions there with a grain of salt. |
ChadA
http://chadarnow.com/
Last edited by Chad Arnow on Sun 18 Jan, 2015 7:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tim M.
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 7:09 am Post subject: |
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There was an episode yesterday where they were talking about a Ryumon sword going for $1250...nothing on Pawn Stars can be taken seriously, least of which is their "experts". I'll grant that there are some very interesting items shown, but everything should be taken with a heavy serving of salt...
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Arnow wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Just to be clear, Craig Gotlieb is the the expert that I had mentioned in the previous post. |
I thought it was Sean from Tortuga Trading that you had an issue with, not Craig Gottlieb.
See here: http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20664 .
| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Many of the things on Tortuga Trading company are mislabeled as being antique when they are modern-made (20th century) items. I've emailed Sean, the proprietor, multiple times with photos and information and he's never responded. Some items are 1990s Kolombotovich or J.F. Schroeder pieces, others are from elsewhere. Either way, take the descriptions there with a grain of salt. |
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Yes. Sean is an audience favorite and people noticed his absence.
He still has a fakes on his Web site for sale. Of note are a few Oscar Kolombatovich items made in the 90s listed as Victorian examples or the Cinquedea made by JF Schroder that is the same as the one in my own collection. I've sent him several notes about this with photos of the same items as made by the modern makers and he never responded. From this, I am comfortable commenting that he doesn't care about such things as authenticity or accuracy--at least as it pertains to his wallet.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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I watched that segment, and was surprised at how many fingerprints they put on that blade. Come on, put on some gloves!
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Zach Gordon
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| Posted: Sun 18 Jan, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I understand that it's mostly scripted... But I was under the impression most of the sellers were 'real' and the items are actually sold at Gold & Silver... From what I've read.
My contention on the sword is that the hilt looks Victorian, but the blade really looks real with those marks. And the cripness on the fuller. No one who made it that well would just eff it up throwing chemicals on it.
It looked like something with an old blade, Victorian hilt, that at some point someone polished, and at some point someone tried to age.
Not exactly fake, and still worth something.
I've watched that so called expert mess up things before and make stupid comments... Especially early on where 'all guns needed to be tested that they could fire... By shooting them' and saying how it could explode. You can tell if it will shoot or not by inspecting it, and you should never shoot something yourself you think might explode!
Does anyone else agree with my feelings on the sword, or do you think I'm off? I ask this more because I'm interested about spotting fakes, than I am about the show. It's also always a lot harder to say a fake might be real, or partially real, than that a "real" item might be fake!
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jan, 2015 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Wow, that "expert" really is full of you know what. The blade looks real to me. Patina, shape, fuller, marks, none of it looks wrong to me. Fittings probably are later than the blade, but not necessarily. Both blade and fittings could be 18th century and that is a period when these swords were still used. Only thing weird is that the blade is blunted... Who would blunt such a sword?
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jan, 2015 4:50 am Post subject: |
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http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/inspect.asp?Item=5873
does it come with a certificate of authenticity? And who authenticates the certificate as authentic?
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Michael Beeching
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jan, 2015 7:46 am Post subject: |
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I recall watching that episode - the thing that stood out to me was the crispness of the wrapping on the handle. Because of said crispness in the wrapping, I was of the opinion that it was indeed possibly a fake. At the time, I don't think I recognized that said handle was wire-wrapped, however (near-sightedness for you).
...I think the other problem is likely that we're thinking the sword is older than it really is - it's probably 100-300 years old, and had been well-maintained over the course of its lifetime; whether it's genuinely 1680 is of course debatable. I post my reservations as I recall my initial impressions (in the first paragraph), and those are always a little hard to shake.
Lastly, if it's a properly made sword, even if it is a fake, you could still make several hundred dollars from its sale. It certainly has several years behind it even if it's not the real deal, and it's still a lovely (albit grisly) weapon.[/i]
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Mon 19 Jan, 2015 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Beeching wrote: | | Lastly, if it's a properly made sword, even if it is a fake, you could still make several hundred dollars from its sale. It certainly has several years behind it even if it's not the real deal, and it's still a lovely (albit grisly) weapon.[/i] |
The owner/potential seller said that it had been appraised at $12,000 but he did not say by whom.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Ryan Renfro
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| Posted: Tue 20 Jan, 2015 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | He still has a fakes on his Web site for sale. Of note are a few Oscar Kolombatovich items made in the 90s listed as Victorian examples or the Cinquedea made by JF Schroder that is the same as the one in my own collection. I've sent him several notes about this with photos of the same items as made by the modern makers and he never responded. From this, I am comfortable commenting that he doesn't care about such things as authenticity or accuracy--at least as it pertains to his wallet. |
Sounds as if their choice of the Jolly Roger as company logo was not coincidental.
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jan, 2015 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Some of the things I note. Keep in mind the piece is not in front of me, nor am I to be regarded as some supreme authority.
A brass hilt that appears to me to be very machined. Noted a shiny steel or silvery section of the wire grip near the hilt. Agreeing to the discolored spots on the guard. I don't like much of what is etched on the blade. An orb with cross on a German blade is common but it is a simple cross, not maltese. The figural etch newer looking to the worn section of etching..
I have misread a sword in the past and it was pointed out to me that etching can be added after the fact, We do see here a form thsat would be described as an executioner's sword but why uneven wear? Why that much wear to parts of the etch?
What is the glint of silver on the grip by the guard?
Cheers
GC
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Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional
Location: Oxford, England Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Sun 15 Mar, 2015 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Well, that expert is selling these: [link removed by administrator--why send them traffic?]
Which are so incredibly fake, I feel it is a bit criminal to be misrepresenting them as he is (note the sport fencing epeé blades).
Enough said.
Cheers!
Historia magistra vitae est
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