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E.F. Magnuson
Location: Minnesota, USA Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2015 7:06 am Post subject: |
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I would imagine plenty of modern arms would survive and I can promise you in all reality I would keep my firearms as long as I can. However, in the interest of keeping this discussion on topic as intended I'll say this: look at the long term.
As I said in my previous post even a blackpowder muzzleloader is dependent on a supply of propellant or its chemical precursors/ingredients. I would not want my safety or the safety of my family wholly dependent on something that may not be around very long. Sure, if given time I could start up some blackpowder production but I'm not interested in starting a manufacturing base or being an immobile target for everyone else that wants my powder. Would I take my guns? Most certainly. But, I would take a bow, spear, and shortsword as well with several different knives (bushcraft/woodcraft knife, multi-tool, field dressing kit, etc.) and a hatchet or camp axe (really a tomahawk would be best, but my three weapon allowance is already filled) to boot--all with a vision for the long term. That's why I excluded firearms from my initial list even though they are the most effective tool/weapon in my hands.
In omnibus requiem quaesivi et nusquam inveni, nisi in angulo cum libro.
--Thomas a Kempis
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John Young
Location: Williamsburg, KY Joined: 03 Feb 2012
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2015 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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I make my own selbows and arrows. So I would definitely have a bow in hand.
The only sword I own right now is an Albion crecy so it would be on my belt.
My tomahawk would round out my weaponry.
A flintlock pistol might replace the hawk if available.
Good thread.
John
Just here to learn.
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Edward Lee
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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There is plenty of weapons t o pick, but one thing I'm concerned is the carrying of such weapon. I find it difficult to carry around a long weapon such as rapier, longsword or any sword that's longer than 30 inches of blade.
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Ben Coomer
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2015 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe a rephrasing of the question?
You are about to be transported to a low magic fantasy world where the gods have decreed no one shall have guns or synthetic plasticis and you have only a few moments to pick 3 weapons you'd take, which must be reasonable for a pre-industrial society. You are also going to be a hero in this world and expected, even required, to take on the various evils afflicting this world, which range from barely armed looters to fully armored knights.
Maybe taking out the possibility of hanging on to modern tech and be truly a fantasy would help?
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Paul B.G
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| Posted: Tue 06 Jan, 2015 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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I don’t mind these sorts of topics, I’m up for a bit of escapism.
In this invented scenario and limited to what I currently own, I’d go with the following;
- Main weapon, Longship Armoury Silvia. I don’t think there will be a lot of armour in the scenario described so I’d choose more of a cutter than a thruster.
- Secondary weapon, either my A&A Norseman Spear or Friedrich Spear, they are both more than capable.
- I’m a bit conflicted on the 3rd choice. I’m tempted to grab for my A&A Type L Fighting Axe or my Fallen made Scottish Dirk. But with space and weight at a premium I think I’ll go with the dirk.
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—Alfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Coomer wrote: | Maybe a rephrasing of the question?
You are about to be transported to a low magic fantasy world where the gods have decreed no one shall have guns or synthetic plasticis and you have only a few moments to pick 3 weapons you'd take, which must be reasonable for a pre-industrial society. You are also going to be a hero in this world and expected, even required, to take on the various evils afflicting this world, which range from barely armed looters to fully armored knights.
Maybe taking out the possibility of hanging on to modern tech and be truly a fantasy would help? |
I get your point Ben. And to some degree you are absolutely right. However the scenario you sketched does not quite cover what I am trying to figure out here. Let me explain:
First and foremost, myArmoury is a website that covers historical arms and armor. That is why I feel uncomfortable allowing "modern" guns. In an apocalypse type situation most of us would take a 12 gauge pump action shotgun, an AK 47, a 22 long rifle, a 357 magnum revolver or something along those lines, but that just would not fit in a forum like this. Besides many of us do not have access to or experience with firearms in the first place. But that does not mean we could not face them!
Second, myArmoury is a place that does focus on historical guns. So taking guns out of the equation altogether feels wrong too. Instead I have chosen to make this somewhat awkward compromise. Where we get to put the stuff we know and care about in a situation that is completely new and, yes, completely unhistorical I think this is a fun way of looking at things. The fantasy you propose does the same only slightly different; there is no chance for us to think about possibility of facing rifle with a bow for instance. Or a zombie with sword
Finally, I firmly believe that ancient weapons would actually regain some of their practical use in a post apocalyptic scenery. I am interested to see if others feel the same.
I must say, after seeing some of the responses, that I should probably have put some more thought in my original post, in order to avoid confusion. And your fantasy sure sounds fun. That will be more like a battle of the ancients, where a Roman soldier could face a Samurai warrior ... Hella cool! Maybe you could make a topic about this? I will be one of the first to post. Guaranteed! 
Anyway thanks for joining the conversation!
Ps didn't get to see you weapons of choice. Hint hint... Cheers!
Sir Dreamin'
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Edward Lee wrote: | | There is plenty of weapons t o pick, but one thing I'm concerned is the carrying of such weapon. I find it difficult to carry around a long weapon such as rapier, longsword or any sword that's longer than 30 inches of blade. |
I feel the same way. Shame isn't it? What would you pick instead?
Sir Dreamin'
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| E.F. Magnuson wrote: | Love this conversation!
Regarding the 1861 Colt Navy Revolver, although it is a muzzleloading (or cylinder loaded) blackpowder firearm that does not use cartridges I would hesitate to use it because it DOES require Percussion Caps analogous to cartridge primers.
E |
Are you sure they did not use paper cartridges with the Colt? Or is it simply that you do not see that as an actual cartridge? Without the paper cartridge, can you explain to me if and how they would load up all the chambers beforehand. And would that mean they would have to keep the gun in a more or less upright position (sorry if that sounds stupid).
Thank you for your enthusiasm!
Sir Dreamin'
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M. Livermore
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Regarding the Colt, no, it did not use paper cartridges. I load my nice Italian copy in a pretty standard way. First a measure of powder is poured into the cylinder chamber. Next a patch is placed over the chamber (can be skipped if you plan to grease the cylinder) and a ball is placed on top of the patch. The ram rod seats the ball snugly on the powder charge. The ball should be slightly larger than the chamber so that when rammed in a small ring of lead is shaved off. That creates a very tight fit such that the ball will not come out no matter the angle of carry. Each chamber is loaded like this and then the nipples are capped.
I hope that helps with your questions.
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Mike Ruhala
Location: Stuart, Florida Joined: 24 Jul 2011
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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With firearms I'd choose a D-guard bowie, Remington 1858 Army revolver with a couple spare cylinders and a pattern 1853 Enfield rifle-musket.
Without firearms I'd go for a crossbow, center gripped round shield of moderate size and a messer... then I'd cheat and use the messer to cut a staff. 
Another interesting possibility would be a spear or javelin with amentum, good for hand-to-hand fighting or as a ranged weapon. The staff sling has similar potential. The simple cord sling is actually a really good elective weapon for swordsmen since it takes up almost no weight or space yet with a little practice gives you something that can reach out a tens or even hundreds of yards using found and improvised munitions that range from rocks to incendiary or explosive items. Darts are another good one and can stand in for a dagger as well.
Basically what it comes down to is I'd want a ranged weapon, something for hand-to-hand and a shield to provide some extra defense.
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Mark T
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Mike,
Are you thinking of a messer + buckler combination, or just a larger shield to give more coverage?
Given your experience with longsword, I'm interested in your choice of a messer ... this reminds me of a thread some years back where some folks suggested that they'd want a double-edge for a longs word, but a single-edge for a short sword ... can't now remember the reasoning, but it was an interesting suggestion.
Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury
Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| M. Livermore wrote: | Regarding the Colt, no, it did not use paper cartridges. I load my nice Italian copy in a pretty standard way. First a measure of powder is poured into the cylinder chamber. Next a patch is placed over the chamber (can be skipped if you plan to grease the cylinder) and a ball is placed on top of the patch. The ram rod seats the ball snugly on the powder charge. The ball should be slightly larger than the chamber so that when rammed in a small ring of lead is shaved off. That creates a very tight fit such that the ball will not come out no matter the angle of carry. Each chamber is loaded like this and then the nipples are capped.
I hope that helps with your questions. |
Paper cartridges for percussion cap revolvers sure were used in a military context.
Regardless, my own feelings are that the qualification of restricting weapons to only those popular at myArmoury simply creates a fantasy in and of itself.
The US Pentagon released its own plan for counter zombie projection CONPLAN 8888-11
Modern materials will last long into any apocalyptic situation, so as neat as fantasy kit may be of interest, reality will utilize whatever is at hand. Playing a game of medieval or early modern weapons only, is just that. "No tools alllowed" Ya, right. Many old weapons were first,, tools.
Although, in the grand scheme of things, I would load all my weapons, old and new, into my station wagon and make my way to the local police to offer what I can to the local militia. Unless of course they seem zombified and then would light the fuse. 
Cheers
GC
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| M. Livermore wrote: | Regarding the Colt, no, it did not use paper cartridges. I load my nice Italian copy in a pretty standard way. First a measure of powder is poured into the cylinder chamber. Next a patch is placed over the chamber (can be skipped if you plan to grease the cylinder) and a ball is placed on top of the patch. The ram rod seats the ball snugly on the powder charge. The ball should be slightly larger than the chamber so that when rammed in a small ring of lead is shaved off. That creates a very tight fit such that the ball will not come out no matter the angle of carry. Each chamber is loaded like this and then the nipples are capped.
I hope that helps with your questions. |
Thank you. Been reading myself, and already found out about the tight fit. But thanks anyway, especially for describing the entire process of loading. Was the tight fit always the case with all blackpowder muzzleloaders? Including older flintlocks and stuff? And strange that I keep seeing the paper cartridge being mentioned when comes to the 1861 colt navy.
Sir Dreamin'
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Glen A Cleeton
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Rim Andries
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Glen A Cleeton wrote: | | M. Livermore wrote: | Regarding the Colt, no, it did not use paper cartridges. I load my nice Italian copy in a pretty standard way. First a measure of powder is poured into the cylinder chamber. Next a patch is placed over the chamber (can be skipped if you plan to grease the cylinder) and a ball is placed on top of the patch. The ram rod seats the ball snugly on the powder charge. The ball should be slightly larger than the chamber so that when rammed in a small ring of lead is shaved off. That creates a very tight fit such that the ball will not come out no matter the angle of carry. Each chamber is loaded like this and then the nipples are capped.
I hope that helps with your questions. |
Paper cartridges for percussion cap revolvers sure were used in a military context.
Regardless, my own feelings are that the qualification of restricting weapons to only those popular at myArmoury simply creates a fantasy in and of itself.
The US Pentagon released its own plan for counter zombie projection CONPLAN 8888-11
Modern materials will last long into any apocalyptic situation, so as neat as fantasy kit may be of interest, reality will utilize whatever is at hand. Playing a game of medieval or early modern weapons only, is just that. "No tools alllowed" Ya, right. Many old weapons were first,, tools.
Although, in the grand scheme of things, I would load all my weapons, old and new, into my station wagon and make my way to the local police to offer what I can to the local militia. Unless of course they seem zombified and then would light the fuse.
Cheers
GC
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People keep misunderstanding what I mean. It is a pity I have to say. I am gonna really have to ante up my English it seems.
No tools allowed meant I was not interested in discussing tools. True old weapons started as tools. But like I said before a tool used as a weapon is still a tool in my eyes. And sure weapons are tools in their own right, but with a very singular purpose... namely killing. A tool for every job. Is that strange that I try to keep things like saws, icepicks, sticks and stones and what not out of the conversation on a board like this? Which, by the way, I already gave up (see edit asking for tools and armor too).
Good luck reaching your police station when it is completely leveled by an earthquake or a tsunami.
Modern materials lasting in any apocalyptic situation is very very likely. It is not a guarantee however. Then again if they didn't make it almost nothing else could have.
Thinking about these kind of things is fantasy. Regardless of any imposed restrictions or conditions, medieval or otherwise. Strange how some people seem to have no problem with this and simply want to play the game, while others just want to poke holes at what is obviously a flawed set-up to begin with.
And for the record; I choose a bauernwehr, handaxe and crossbow. I too would take any and all weapons I could get. Ofcourse I would. But who says I can take all 25 of them with me? A firearm would be the first thing I look for. A knife would be the last thing to go. It is that simple.
Sorry if I came off as defensive but I felt the need to stand up for my weird little topic.
Ps thanks for clarifying the colt issue
Sir Dreamin'
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No tools allowed meant I was not interested in discussing tools. |
Just as true, some are less interested in discussing fantasy (which is how this discussion reads to me). They are disturbing to me in that they tend to promote misinformation. Hence my reply in the first place.
Cheers
GC
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Edward Lee
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Rim Andries wrote: | | Edward Lee wrote: | | There is plenty of weapons t o pick, but one thing I'm concerned is the carrying of such weapon. I find it difficult to carry around a long weapon such as rapier, longsword or any sword that's longer than 30 inches of blade. |
I feel the same way. Shame isn't it? What would you pick instead? |
I would carry a dagger, and a type xiv.
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Tom King
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Rim Andries wrote: | | would you say that your longsword and longbow still have a role to play if the aliens left your guns alone I am genuinely curious. |
I'd probably be kicking myself over never building that medieval hunting crossbow; an idea that has been on the backburner for years. I own and shoot a wide variety of self bows and modern recurves, but I don't practice 1/10th of the amount I'd need to consider it even an option for hunting season, let alone self defense. I do think it would be a comical scene for looters to breach the defenses of my home only to find themselves confronted by several medieval longbowmen behind a man at arms in full plate bearing a poleaxe.
My A&A nordland handaxe and my handy dandy MLR knife blank baselard would definitely have a role in Fallout: Cuba Libre (At least that would be my working title for the Post Apocalyptic video game's 4th installment if it happened to take place in florida) A 4 foot long sword seems a bit much if I was on the move. Bugging in, I'd definitely have all my toys fluffed, buffed, and sharpened appropriately.
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Ben Coomer
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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@ Rim.
I think I was like fourth or fifth in comments.
I chose a longbow (cause I'm good with one and can make them and arrows from most anywhere), longsword (cause I am good with one and its a weapon that I know has a counter for most other 'medieval' weapons and armor combos I might run into) and a long dagger (because if I'm in a house, I need to be able to fight) over a spear with some deliberation.
But, I'll happily share again.
As for the guns, part of why I didn't go with one (other than not being fond of them anyway) is that they do seem to need a certain amount of infrastructure to support using one as a regular weapon. Even the famed Kentucky long rifle man needed at least someone to make his powder, if not the lead, for his weapon. In an EOTWAWKI scenario, that sort of thing might become scare. Not so much a worry with bows and arrows.
And if I am trying to avoid hordes of mindless zombies, I might be wanting something quieter too.
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Mike Ruhala
Location: Stuart, Florida Joined: 24 Jul 2011
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed 07 Jan, 2015 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark T wrote: | Mike,
Are you thinking of a messer + buckler combination, or just a larger shield to give more coverage? |
The line between buckler and shield is actually pretty blurry, bucklers were often just small versions of larger shields... even the crazy bucklers in Talhoffer had full sized counterparts. I'd want something between 18 inches and two feet in diameter, big enough to offer some protection against thrown weapons and big enough to close off an opening but not so large as to be in the way when slung over the back and moving through a building or the wilds. I'd also have a strap on the grip so I could hang the shield from my wrist when shooting the crossbow. If I was allowed modern materials this shield would be made from ballistic laminate to provide protection from handguns and shotguns, to keep weight in reason it'd probably end up being 16" to 18" in diameter. I've built a wooden shield, someday I'll build the updated version.
| Quote: |
Given your experience with longsword, I'm interested in your choice of a messer ... this reminds me of a thread some years back where some folks suggested that they'd want a double-edge for a longs word, but a single-edge for a short sword ... can't now remember the reasoning, but it was an interesting suggestion. |
I'm pretty good with a longsword and I do like them but honestly it's not my favorite KDF weapon, I like the staff and messer more. Arming swords are also good but I feel the messer has several advantages. For one thing there's the nagel, a wonderful tool if you're up against another striking weapon yet it's small and simple so a messer can pack more blade compared to other weapons in the cutlass/hanger class for the same overall weight while still offering good hand protection. Having a blunt edge aids in a high percentage sword capturing technique I like and as a tool makes it handle more like a machete which I'm very familiar and comfortable with. It also integrates better with firearms and potentially crossbows... ultimately I'd want a short sword like a messer because I know I'd be using the crossbow or rifle-musket as often as I could so I'd want my sword to not be an encumbrance when sheathed and I want to make use of the techniques I'm familiar with that integrate sword and firearm. I can even sling the shield across my chest and still use the messer, can't do that very well with a longsword.
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