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Lin Robinson
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 Posted: Sat 27 Dec, 2014 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: |
Well, I did say relatively...  Weaponry, while not perfect is better than in most other movies about crusades, events in the movie are also historical events although they are of course romanticized and modified... Certainly much better than Kingdom of Heaven... |
I should have been more specific with my question. I was not referring to arms and armor and certainly agree that Kingdom of Heaven was deficient in that department as are most high dollar extravaganza movies. What I was referring to was the presence of Swedes in the Templars.
I am member of one of the modern Templar Orders - SMOTJ- which has, of course, different aims and ideals than the original order. However, my Order does place emphasis on studying the original Order. To that end, I have read extensively on Templar history and, as of this date, I have not encountered anything which says there were Scandinavian Templars. I am, however, open to any information which says otherwise if anyone has any.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Baard H
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| Posted: Sat 27 Dec, 2014 9:27 am Post subject: |
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As the Arn movies are based on a book-series of historical fiction, I think some of the inaccuracies will have to be credited the author rather than the movie though.
I like how they got the Swedish and Danish armies to neither look "hollywood over the top flashy" nor too dirty and "hollywood dark ageish" and gotten the equipment, armour and weapons to look quite good.
(If you doesn't count how they depicted the Norwegians, but that can be blamed on it being a swedish film. To those who doesn't know, the relationship between Norway and Sweden is a bit like England and France)
At kveldi skal dag leyfa,
konu, er brennd er,
mćki, er reyndr er,
mey, er gefin er,
ís, er yfir kemr,
öl, er drukkit er.
-Hávamál, vísa 81
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Sat 27 Dec, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Lin Robinson wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: |
Well, I did say relatively... Weaponry, while not perfect is better than in most other movies about crusades, events in the movie are also historical events although they are of course romanticized and modified... Certainly much better than Kingdom of Heaven... |
I should have been more specific with my question. I was not referring to arms and armor and certainly agree that Kingdom of Heaven was deficient in that department as are most high dollar extravaganza movies. What I was referring to was the presence of Swedes in the Templars.
I am member of one of the modern Templar Orders - SMOTJ- which has, of course, different aims and ideals than the original order. However, my Order does place emphasis on studying the original Order. To that end, I have read extensively on Templar history and, as of this date, I have not encountered anything which says there were Scandinavian Templars. I am, however, open to any information which says otherwise if anyone has any. |
Fwiw. some background
http://brego-weard.com/lib2/Men_at_Arms_436_-...0-1500.pdf
There were certainly proto Templars in Scandinavia and some feel there was a significant historic Templar presence in the north, thus contributing not just to The Good Templars order of the 19th century but also a lot of more recent conspiracy theory stuff (round churches, etc).
Past the beginning, I think you will agree that the Templar order grew as a network and in failing, were somewhat absorbed into other sects of benevolence and wealth in other countries. That, particularly in England where few were persecuted past fines and the bulk rolled into Edward's coffers and "troops" to the Hospilliters.
Another Scandinavian brief maybe worth reading
http://www.tribwatch.com/bjelbo.htm
I have not watched Arn, nor a templar scholar but will go as far to say that the migration and trade of information in connections was great enough to encompass a lot more for any to learn.
Do you have a handy roster of the original Knights Templars and all their lineages? I'm not just trying to be a smart ass with that question but rather asking if you have studied the generations that preceded these men.
Cheers
GC
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Believe it or not, Blackadder is really pretty accurate in a somewhat ironic way. Not if one looks at the details, but in general it captures the spirit of the age (or what I understand of it from a casual but extensive reading of primary sources) far better than any other series or movie I've seen. By contrast, Pillars of the Earth started with a pretty good book but something must have gone south somewhere in the adaptation process. Just forget the series and read the original book instead.
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Lin Robinson
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| Posted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Glen A Cleeton wrote: |
Fwiw. some background
http://brego-weard.com/lib2/Men_at_Arms_436_-...0-1500.pdf
There were certainly proto Templars in Scandinavia and some feel there was a significant historic Templar presence in the north, thus contributing not just to The Good Templars order of the 19th century but also a lot of more recent conspiracy theory stuff (round churches, etc).
Past the beginning, I think you will agree that the Templar order grew as a network and in failing, were somewhat absorbed into other sects of benevolence and wealth in other countries. That, particularly in England where few were persecuted past fines and the bulk rolled into Edward's coffers and "troops" to the Hospilliters.
Another Scandinavian brief maybe worth reading
http://www.tribwatch.com/bjelbo.htm
I have not watched Arn, nor a templar scholar but will go as far to say that the migration and trade of information in connections was great enough to encompass a lot more for any to learn.
Do you have a handy roster of the original Knights Templars and all their lineages? I'm not just trying to be a smart ass with that question but rather asking if you have studied the generations that preceded these men.
Cheers
GC |
Glen...
1. The link to the Men at Arms series has nothing to do with my original question. The Arn movie is about a Swedish Templar in the Holy Land. The Baltic Crusades had very little to do with the attempts by Latin Christians to displace the Muslims who had, in their eyes, taken over a territory which rightfully belonged to Christians. Lots of debate on that, of course. Although the Baltic Crusades fit the strict definition of "Crusades" their objectives were different.
2. I am unsure what you mean by "Past the beginning." The Templars from the outset, thanks to a Papal Bull stating that they were only subject to the authority of the Pope, were completely independent of the temporal rulers of the Holy Land. That they allied themselves with the European rulers of the Holy Land is historical fact but they only did so when it benefitted the Order and its objectives. When they were dissolved by Pope Clement V in 1312, many Templars outside France were absorbed into other military orders such as the Knights of Christ in Spain and the Teutonic Knights. They were needed to defend Europe from possible Muslim incursions. Most of the active persecution of the Templars took place in France. What lands and moveable treasure they had - and it was not much in spite of the legends of Templar gold being spirited away by sea - wound up either in the hands of the monarchy or, as in England, reverted to those who had given it to the Order in the first place. You may be aware that the Templars established the first international banking system, due in large measure to trust so many placed in them. That alone made them very powerful in Europe prior to the beginning of the persecution by King Philip the Fair. They really stood on their own for almost 200 years.
3. There is limited information on the original Templars beyond Godfrey de St. Omer and Hugh de Payen. Recently some information about the dozen or so founders of the Order has appeared but the jury is still out as to its accuracy. At any rate, the founders were all of French extraction as arguably most of the people who went on the crusades to the Holy Land probably were. The Teutonic Knights and Hospitallers were also there, of course and there were Italian, German and English Templars in the Holy Land but most were French. If, by your question you are hinting that many of the French founders of the Templars were of Norman extraction and therefore descended from Scandinavians through Rolf The Ganger and others then I would have to say that is likely but by the time of the Crusades they were French.
Sorry, but you have not convinced me of a Templar - Scandinavian connection.
Lin Robinson
"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Tue 30 Dec, 2014 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Lafayette C Curtis wrote: | | Believe it or not, Blackadder is really pretty accurate in a somewhat ironic way. Not if one looks at the details, but in general it captures the spirit of the age (or what I understand of it from a casual but extensive reading of primary sources) far better than any other series or movie I've seen. By contrast, Pillars of the Earth started with a pretty good book but something must have gone south somewhere in the adaptation process. Just forget the series and read the original book instead. |
Chiswick, fresh horses!
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