[Gordon Frye]

While the subject of maille is front and center here, I thought I would throw out this question. I've researched New World arms and armour fairly deeply (I did my Master's Thesis on it in fact, but that was 20 years ago) and have run across some minor references to maille manufactured in the New World, specifically in Mexico, in the late 16th and early 17th Centuries, and used by the Spanish soldiery on the Northern Frontiers. I'm copying below a thread from a defunct forum that thankfully was saved for posterity by the reenactment group "Calderon's Company" who do reenactments of Hernando de Soto's expediton to the present US South East.

Here below is the thread: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/calderon/

Subject: Re: SPANBORD Digest - 31 Jan 1998 to 2 Feb 1998

Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:06:24 -0800

From: Jack S Williams <jackwill@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Of chain mail and other items

Chain mail was certainly an item that made an appearance in the wars fought in the northern part of the viceroyalty in the sixteenth century. The penetrating power of the bows used by the Indians in the Southwest and northern Mexico were extremely variable. Some were simple constructions of wood. Others were composite horn and sinew affairs of comparable characteristics to asiatic bows, such as those used by the Turkish Peoples. A factor also of note was the size of the projectile point. In the case of the Chichimec peoples of the Zacatecas frontier area, extremely small obsidian points were used. To stop one of these arrows a special kind of mail (double mail), made with half the normal size links, was used. By the way, years ago Art Woodward told me that he could always recognize chain mail that had been made during this period in Mexico, as the rivet used were copper or brass, instead of the traditional iron or steel. I remember seeing a shirt of this type once at the Heard Museum, in Phoenix.

There is no question that the mail worn in the arid Southwestern deserts was an annoyance, and leather armor, a substance that had been popular as an alternative in Iberia since before the middle ages, was often used. It should be noted, however, that according to Philip Wayne Powell chain mail remained popular (1952:127). No doubt that this was linked in part to the tactics of the Chichimec War presidiales. These men were armed and equipped as escopeteros. Wearing heavy armor in the form of both chain and plate, the men's main weapon was a wheel-lock carbine and sword. Trained to operate in skirmishing actions, in a style similar to the Reiter Cavalry of Germany, the escopeteros were used on the continent and overseas. Wheel-locks (armas de fuego a rueda) were used because they were deemed superior in guerilla warfare ( or the guerra volante as it was sometimes called), since the matchlock arquebus and musquette required a considerable amount of preparation time prior to combat. The escopeteros wore steel helmets. Many equipped with visors (seladas con sobrevistas). leather thigh pieces were also worn. Lilian and Fred Funcken show one of the troops of this type in action in their 1977 study of medieval and Renaissance warfare.

It should also be noted that chain mail is also much in evidence in the expedition of Juan de Onate, as were both escopeteros and lancers (seePeterson 1956:130).

(The Onate Expedition was 1598 to colonize New Mexico, BTW, snd there are complete muster rolls showing a great deal of maille being used by the colonists).

So my question is, has anyone here seen any of this Mexican Maille, and if so how does it differ other than in the copper rivets? Are there other examples of maille being made with copper rivets in Eurasia? Anyway, I thought I would take advantage of the interest level in maille to ask this, and hopefully there will be some animated discussions on it!

Thanks,

Gordon

[Dan Howard]

How does he know that "double mail" refers to mail made from smaller links? There are dozens of references to "double mail "but nothing to indicate what was meant by that term - just that it offered better protection. It could have meant smaller links. It could have meant a denser weave using double the normal amount of links. It could have meant heavier links, weighing twice as much. It could mean wearing two haubergeons on top of one another.

[Gordon Frye]

Dan; I really don't know. I've tried to contact these fellows without success (well, I did a while back, might be more successful if I tried again I suppose!) so I thought I would ask here. That of course brings out a good point: What precisely IS "Double Maille"? We hear of it from time to time, but not much actually documentation that I am aware of to define it. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Gordon

[Dan Howard]

As far as I know, nobody as presented a credible argument pinning down exactly what double mail was. I mentioned the more common theories in the thread above. In my opinion the least likely is the wearing of two hauberks on top of one another dispite there being a precedent for this - the Song of Roland mentions a lance penetrating two mail hauberks worn by a knight only to be stopped by a third. It is conceivable that this knight was wearing "triple mail" - ie three hauberks on top of each other. I don't buy it though. It would be too heavy and the mail layers would bind and entangle one another without a layer of cloth-leather in between.

[Gordon Frye]

Dan, it certainly makes sense that "double maille" would NOT be wearing two hauberks, since I would think that both the weight and expense would make it a fairly unusual proposition. I had been given to understand that it was something on the order of using two rings rather than a single ring for every link, but perhaps it's the "six-ring" rather than the more common "four-ring" maille that is what they are talking about. Good point of research though to try to dig it out.

Have you ever seen any of this maille that has copper rivets? My own knowledge of such things is limited to European varieties, and not a lot of that (well, plus a few pieces of Oriental/Asian stuff such as Allan Senefelder was mentioning in the other thread). So I would be very interested in knowing if any one has actually seen this stuff.

Thank you for your insights on this, and I look forward to more thoughts. Thanks!

Gordon

[Sam Barris]

There are two things that double maille might be. The first is a standard six-in-one pattern. The other is what the fantasy maille types like to call king's maille. It's basically an eight-in-two pattern. Like four-in-one but with two links instead of one. Either way, what you're talking about isn't that old. Have any original pieces survived?

[Jean Thibodeau]

I have a bishops mantle where the raised collar about 3 to 4 inches high is, I thinks of 4 in 2 pattern (Stainless butted spring steel made by Tom Maringer around 1980.)

It is very dense and would be much harder to penetrate, blunt trauma protection should also be much better than standard maille as it feels semie rigid: Almost impossible to fold it over itself, it forms a curve about an inch and a half when one attempts to fold it flat, while normal maille folds without offering any resistance. (If riveted would be very strong.)

It looks as if every alternating row is made of two rings instead of one.

Is this "double maille" who knows? But it does look and feel doubly dense.

Now an 8 in 2 pattern, if possible, might be much to heavy and would be barely flexible as my 4 in 2 is already at the limit of flexibilty: It sort of works because it only has to surround the neck, I have my doupts that a full shirt would have good flexibility in more that one direction at a time. Might work as front and back panels over the chest and back if the sides were of normal maille or if used as a cylinder covering only the chest above the waist.

Could be wrong about this as I haven't handled a full size shirt made of "so-called " double maille: Just a guess handling my small piece of it.

[Sam Barris]

Eight-in-two might be a bad way to describe it. Look here:
http://artofchainmail.com/patterns/european/kings1in8.html

I'm 99% sure that this is purely a fantasy pattern, and it would seem that the owner of this site is, too. But it would seem to fit the "double mail" description.

[Jean Thibodeau]

Sam;

Thanks for the link (Excuse the pun...LOL)

Yes mine uses this pattern, but like I said does it in alternating rows and looks quite dense: One has to look closely to notice that it isn't every row.

What real double maille was is still a mystery I guess. (Until someone finally finds some!)

[Dan Howard]

[E.B. Erickson]

Hi Guys,
Looking at everyone's location, my contribution may not be of much help, but here goes.
In the Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History, the entire lower level is given over to the history of the area. Along with several Espada Ancha and muskets, they have on display a Spanish shirt of mail. Now it's been about two years since I was there last, but I recall that it was a very dense style (small rings), and that the museum tag said that it weighed 40 pounds. I don't know what the rivet material was.

--ElJay

[Gordon Frye]

Thanks Eljay! I had totally forgotten about the LAC Museum, so next time I'm forced by circumstance to venture down to the rim of Hades I'll drop in and check it out. As I recall they have a lot of cool stuff there, such as adarga's and even a cuerra, i.e. New World buff coat. At least they did at one time, so if not on display they have them in the bowels of the museum somewhere.

Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Sam Barris]

[Patrick Kelly]

This is an interesting topic. Let's just make sure that it coolly stays on topic gentlemen.

[Gordon Frye]

Since "Double Maille" could refer to a lot of different things that we could speculate about, what are the chances then that the term refers to the reinforced patches that were illustrated from time to time? Such as some of the late 11th through mid-13th Century hauberks that show a patch over the chest area which seems to suggest a second piece, which would have the same effect for that area at least as a second hauberk, with much less expense and bulk.

Now if this has been gone over before and been rejected, please excuse this proposal. My real area of interest is the 16th Century, and maille is generally ignored, or at least delt with tersely, even if prevelent, in favor of plate in most referrences of the period, so I'm having to rely on less-than-current information from my less-than-perfect memory!

Thanks,

Gordon

[Dan Howard]

[Dan Howard]

The most likely explanation for the "Norman bib" is that it was a flap intended to be lifted up and tied around the back of the head. When in place it protects the throat.

Steven Lowe has done a good article on the subject. http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/armsandarmour/normanbib.html

[Gordon Frye]

Thanks Dan, I really appreciate your input. Sometimes it's tough to get a real handle on this stuff, and it's really nice to have the expertise of those who have "Been there, Done that" to help folks find their way. I'm pretty knowledgeable on some things, but maille is a whole new ballgame for me! I learn something new about it every time I go to this board. So again, THANKS!

Cheers,

Gordon