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Roberto E.
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Posted: Sat 04 Oct, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Peters wrote: | Roberto E wrote: |
What would they use in the place of the nuts and nails?
Where could i find such shields?
Or will i have to find a craftsmen like in the case of the mail?
Are the link provided by Phil D. good shields?
Im becoming skeptical of kult of athena for historically accurate haha. |
As I mentioned, above, glue holds the shield together. You will be able to find modern makers who can do them well, but you must be discriminating if you want historical accuracy. Try asking Tod: http://www.todsstuff.com.
The great majority of things for sale on Kult of Athena are not particularly historically accurate. Remember, the number one concern of many, if not most, customers at Kult of Athena is: how cheap is it? Generally, the closer you get to historical accuracy, the more expensive an item becomes. For many customers, historical accuracy takes a back seat to cost. They simply will not spend beyond a certain amount for what they want. Consequently, most of the more accurate reproductions are produced by a comparatively small group of craftsmen and women. If you want higher volumes of sale, sell inexpensive stuff of dubious accuracy at a lower price point. |
Would you advice for me to get both my shield and scabbard from him?
For it to be historically accurate.?
Now for another question,
What would be the most historically accurate great helm?
I am aware that they were less common than norman helmets,
But on this one im going to chose preference over history haha.
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Craig Peters
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Eric Allen
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Peters wrote: |
As I mentioned, above, glue holds the shield together. You will be able to find modern makers who can do them well, but you must be discriminating if you want historical accuracy. Try asking Tod: http://www.todsstuff.com.
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Wait... Are you saying the enarms were *glued* to the shield? Becasue I'm pretty sure Roberto was asking about the bolts.
I'm pretty sure the Bayeux Tapestry shows what could be interpreted as nail heads for the straps showing on the surface of a number of shields. I get that vast majority of shields do not show any nail heads or anything on the face (but then they're also covered with linen, leather, gesso, paint, etc.).
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Mart Shearer
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a good tutorial on historic construction of the shield based on extant examples from Gregory J. Liebau, who also posts here on myArmoury.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=167321
To echo Craig, there really aren't too many great helms around for the Third Crusade. One of the earliest depiction is from the final seal of Richard I, so if you are portraying a king..... Otherwise you're better off on the accuracy scale with a conical or domed skull with or without nasal. Some of these helmets also have early face-plates, but no plate over the back of the head below the brow.
The search page at Manuscript Miniatures allows you to narrow your search by year and country, so you might want to look at results from 1175-1200 for inspiration.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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If I recall correctly Mart, the final seal belonging to Richard the Lionheart dates from 1199 AD. That makes it nearly a decade too late for the Third Crusade. Given that armour styles can and do change over the course of a decade, I would be hesitant to use it as a source for the crusade.
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Roberto E.
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, so this is what i got so far,
I guess the best way to start would be from the head down.
For the Helm I am going with the nasal helm of the time. Made by Royal oak armory.
http://www.royaloakarmoury.com/portfolio/conical-helmet/
As for the mail,
I am in the search for a craftsmen that will be able to make
a hauberk with integrated coif and mittens, made out of 4-1 design Alternating between riveted and solid rings.
With the riveted rings being riveted properly.
And hopefully leggings with same specifications.
So far im too intimidated to do it myself. So craftsmen will most likely be my choice.
As for the aketon/gameson I am still a bit clueless.
It seems and it has been mentioned that it would be a leather aketon that would not go beyond waist.
The sword of choice will be the Albion 13th century knightly sword,
And maybe later the Albion Templar.
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...lar-xa.htm
The shield will be a kite shield with the traditional red cross on it.
Provided by toms stuff.
where i also hope to get my swords scabbard from.
As for the shoes beneath the mail,
It seems that medieval leather shoes will do the trick, however it is not of urgency.
As for the tunic and cape, the only ones ive been able to find
are from kult of athena which by now, im almost 90 percent sure are not accurate. haha
How is this looking?
am i on the right track?
Anything else that i need to know.?
What else should i add?
Ive learned so much so far and its awesome which i want to thank you guys for.
This will not be all bought at once. its going to be a slow but sure progress to have my dream historically accurate templar knight!
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Roberto E.
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Peters wrote: | If I recall correctly Mart, the final seal belonging to Richard the Lionheart dates from 1199 AD. That makes it nearly a decade too late for the Third Crusade. Given that armour styles can and do change over the course of a decade, I would be hesitant to use it as a source for the crusade. |
Could you please explain this?
the page(the link mart put) wont open for me so i don't know what this is about.
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Mart Shearer
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Peters wrote: | If I recall correctly Mart, the final seal belonging to Richard the Lionheart dates from 1199 AD. That makes it nearly a decade too late for the Third Crusade. Given that armour styles can and do change over the course of a decade, I would be hesitant to use it as a source for the crusade. |
Since Roberto originally stated, "Most specifically a late 12th century to early 13th century Templar armor.", I think any confusion which has arisen is due to this imprecise dating. I believe Craig and I are in full agreement, and it is important to understand what is appropriate for the early 13th century is not always appropriate for the late 12th! More precisely, what is accurate for 1200 might not be accurate for 1190.
Roberto, you might find this thread of interest, as it has links to the seal in question, as well as detailed examples showing Craig and my point regarding these early great helms.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=29717
The Second Great Seal of Richard I of England is one of, if not the earliest depictions of a flat-topped helm with face mask (great helm) and is dated to 1195-1199 --12th century, but after the Third Crusade. So you have made a wise choice by going with Royal Oak's conical helm, since it allows you a wider range of accurate presentation.
Armour Archive seems to be offline at the moment. Perhaps the link on shield construction will be available tomorrow.
A warning on the shield: There are paintings of the Templars which show the shield painted as a variant of the black over white Templar banner, Beauseant. Most of these date to the 13th century, but it might have been the practice earlier.
One of the early Templar seals shows what could be 8 reinforcements, or a chi-rho.
The time appropriate images from Cressac linked earlier in the thread show a red cross added to a heraldic shield with some sort of bird, likely an eagle. It is uncertain if this is a Templar (though the image is in a Templar chapel) or simply a Crusader who has "taken the cross".
There are other people who have dedicated quite a bit of study to surviving Templar images, and it seems that there was no universal shield design among them, but perhaps there was some uniformity within each chapter house.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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There's an easily overlooked detail that should be present in your kit for the sake of accuracy and completeness: spurs. Like everything else we've mentioned, spurs changed in appearance over time. You want simple prick spurs, and not rowel spurs. The latter, consisting of a wheel shape with multiple spikes portruding, is more appropriate to the 14th century. Have a look at the image from the Allen collection: http://www.allenantiques.com/Spurs-Collection.html. Notice that even prick spurs changed in appearance from the 11th through 13th century, so make sure you order spurs appropriate for the 12th.
You might also want to consider a lance. As far as I know, in the 12th century, there was not a clear distinction in design between a lance head and a spear head.
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Roberto E.
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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Craig Peters wrote: | There's an easily overlooked detail that should be present in your kit for the sake of accuracy and completeness: spurs. Like everything else we've mentioned, spurs changed in appearance over time. You want simple prick spurs, and not rowel spurs. The latter, consisting of a wheel shape with multiple spikes portruding, is more appropriate to the 14th century. Have a look at the image from the Allen collection: http://www.allenantiques.com/Spurs-Collection.html. Notice that even prick spurs changed in appearance from the 11th through 13th century, so make sure you order spurs appropriate for the 12th.
You might also want to consider a lance. As far as I know, in the 12th century, there was not a clear distinction in design between a lance head and a spear head. |
Could you help me find a mail craftsmen? ive had no luck.
Where could i find a historically accurate lance?
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Roberto E.
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Mart Shearer"] Craig Peters wrote: |
There are other people who have dedicated quite a bit of study to surviving Templar images, and it seems that there was no universal shield design among them, but perhaps there was some uniformity within each chapter house. |
So would the typical white shield with the red cross be accurate but rare?
Or just innacurate?
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Roberto E.
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Posted: Sun 05 Oct, 2014 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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and to further address this confusion, which is in big part my fault (me being fairly new to all of this)
Let's make this build practical and narrow it down to the third crusade Templar who would have fought in king Richards army.
I think with this it'll be more specific as to were aiming for.
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Have you tried asking Robert MacPherson, who is a member of myArmoury and who posted the images on page 11 of the "Authentic Mail Pictures" thread? He might be willing to do it. Alternatively, the myArmoury links section, near the top left of the page, lists a reasonable number of armourers.
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 12:14 am Post subject: |
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Roberto E. wrote: |
So would the typical white shield with the red cross be accurate but rare?
Or just innacurate? |
The crusaders may have had shields like this, although during the Third Crusade, I recall the crusaders sewed only small crosses onto their surcoats; I am not sure about the size of crosses on shields. As for the Templars, it seems they might have used any number of designs. The design shown in Mart's image of black above white (to use non-heraldic terms) might be appropriate- we don't know if it was used during the Third Crusade or not. Really, most of the heraldic designs seen post 1160 or so would look just fine on your shield. Search Manuscript Miniatures.
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 12:19 am Post subject: |
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If you can find an image of a 12th century spear/lance head, you could have someone custom make it. Arms & Armor could do it. Or you might try Tod.
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Leo Rousseau
Location: France Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 19
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Roberto E. wrote: | Leo Rousseau wrote: | What you should really pay attention to is, what will you wear under the mail. You need to study text and miniatures to know what your civilian clothes will look like, which fabric to use, which colors are ok and which are not. You also need to figure what will be the type of your gambeson (the padded garment you wear under the mail). The most important factor is the wealth of the character you are portraying, because it will have a huge influence on what you will be able to wear. |
So something i've been asking, that has not been answered yet, is about the chainmail at the feet? Would they ear something under the chain mail like boots or shoes?
Because it is clear that it anything on top of the mail was not of the time period.
The character i plan to portray is a high ranking Templar Knight. Preferably of the time of Richard the Lion heart and the third crusade against Saladin. |
Hi,
Sorry for the late reply. But obviously you have to wear some shoes underneath. If yo need some pointers about which type, let me know and I will give you some material.
As for the clothing, most of what you find already made is either inaccurate or don't fit well (and often both), but it is not that hard to do it yourself. About medieval sewing techniques and patterns a good starting point is the book Medieval Tailor Assistant ( http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Tailors-Assist...0896762394 ) .
For the Gambeson, the only representation I know of in this time frame is in a manuscript from France (1200) : http://manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscr.../576-1.jpg
but I didn't made huge researches about this period.
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Luka Borscak
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 3:55 am Post subject: |
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Here is another version for the shield:
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Foong Chen Hong
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Craig Peters wrote: | If you can find an image of a 12th century spear/lance head, you could have someone custom make it. Arms & Armor could do it. Or you might try Tod. |
For spear, you can try Norseman spear that are widely spread through out the Centuries which are very fitting no matter which medieval age you are in.
http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole242.html
They also have this 12 century spear, though I am not so sure how accurate it is judging from the design alone.(I don't look at manuscript much so I am sorry) http://www.arms-n-armor.com/pole146.html
I am too, doing a Templar fighter(or knight) as well. Though I am more targeting the time span of 1250-1307 years.
Descanse En Paz
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Yes, the Norsemen spear is a pretty good generic spear that could serve for many centuries. However, I do notice that the spear heads tend to be a bit wider in the 13th and 15th century images that A&A has posted. For the 12th century, I think the Norseman spear would be fine.
I own the A&A12th century spear myself. While it is a fine spear, the original spear head was actually said to have been from the 14th century, so it may not be appropriate for the 12th century,
Last edited by Craig Peters on Mon 06 Oct, 2014 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters
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Posted: Mon 06 Oct, 2014 5:21 am Post subject: |
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It appears we have at least two images from the late 12th to early 13th century of shields with small crosses, rather than larger ones, and I suspect there may be other images that I have forgotten or have not seen as well. A smaller cross seems to be more appropriate.
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