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Brian Nelson




Location: Houghton, MI
Joined: 17 Mar 2012

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Wed 16 Jul, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject: Leather, maille, plate: most common variants?         Reply with quote

Hello gentlemen,

Myself and some fellows are preparing to create a sound effects library of medieval weapons and armour. We plan (among other things) to use simulations of leather, maille, and plate armour.

Because we can't logistically record impact sounds with every single variant of these types of armour, I am trying to determine a single, all-around, decently representative form of these three types of armour.

My current plan was to use boiled horse leather (very thick) for the leather armour. Soft leather underneath riveted maille for the maille armour. About soft leather under about ten layers of linen under about a 1.2mm steel plate for the plate armour.

Do these approximations seem decently accurate? Please let me know what (in each of your opinions) is the most "average" way each type of respective armour would be worn. Or, let me know how YOU would wear each type of armour (or any type) and I can "average" this like a survey. Your insights would be invaluable!

Regards,

Brian
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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Posts: 385

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jul, 2014 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The only thing I would add is to perhaps do a seperate recording of a hit on a helm, they seem to sound different to impacts on other solid metal armour (to me at least, but that is a pretty small sample group)
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 17 Jul, 2014 2:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You probably need to add a hit on an unarmoured part of the body and a hit on a shield. Do you need to distinguish between cuts and thrusts? An edge hit sounds completely different to a hit with the point of a weapon..
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Brian Nelson




Location: Houghton, MI
Joined: 17 Mar 2012

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jul, 2014 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks. We will be using a shield made from planks, just cloth over meat (clothed body part), meat, helms, a bunch of things and will be stabbing, slashing, butt-striking, etc. with a lot of different weapons. But do my approximations for those three armour types seem adequate?
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,288

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jul, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't understand why you would want leather under mail. Perhaps a quilted coat will do to simulate an aketon.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dean F. Marino




Location: Midland MI USA
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

Posts: 229

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jul, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
You probably need to add a hit on an unarmoured part of the body and a hit on a shield. Do you need to distinguish between cuts and thrusts? An edge hit sounds completely different to a hit with the point of a weapon..


Sound science - I'm not sure who is going to volunteer for this, though Happy.

In edhil, hai edhil. In edain, hai edain.
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J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
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Posts: 728

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jul, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear God, try to get rid of the SHWING sound from drawing a sword from a wooden scabbard...


Your work in getting more accurate and interesting sound effects will be much appreciated by all, however much you are able to include.
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Raman A




Location: United States
Joined: 25 Aug 2011

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Fri 18 Jul, 2014 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
I don't understand why you would want leather under mail. Perhaps a quilted coat will do to simulate an aketon.


I believe the soft leather is to aurally simulate the human body under the mail. How well it will work I have no idea, I'm not a sound designer.
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Brian Nelson




Location: Houghton, MI
Joined: 17 Mar 2012

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sat 19 Jul, 2014 8:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys. We did a firearms library last year with an emphasis on realism. Exact sounds for exact weapons. If people want to add the schwwiiiiiiinggg of a drawn blade...that's their call.
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Gehrig JonLou




Location: Southern California
Joined: 06 Jun 2014

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 19 Jul, 2014 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you want an authentic sound behind your armor use a pork shoulder. It has skin, flesh, and bone analogous to a human body for a low price (usually less than 2 dollars a pound). For example use the leather (I recommend soaked and baked over boiled as it can be tricky to get the boil right) on top of the pork shoulder and hit that.

For the chain I recommend riveted alternating with solid links, as this was the most common and effective form of chain, on top of a padded underlayer: 10 linen layers is best, or 6 to 2 linen layers stuffed with wool padding... on top of a pork shoulder.

I like that you have the 10 linen layers for the plate as well, but again pork shoulder... ideally on a pell of some kind with some give. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJUIsTQ6eGs

"Find Strength, then cultivate it"
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Brian Nelson




Location: Houghton, MI
Joined: 17 Mar 2012

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sat 19 Jul, 2014 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gehrig JonLou wrote:
If you want an authentic sound behind your armor use a pork shoulder. It has skin, flesh, and bone analogous to a human body for a low price (usually less than 2 dollars a pound). For example use the leather (I recommend soaked and baked over boiled as it can be tricky to get the boil right) on top of the pork shoulder and hit that.

For the chain I recommend riveted alternating with solid links, as this was the most common and effective form of chain, on top of a padded underlayer: 10 linen layers is best, or 6 to 2 linen layers stuffed with wool padding... on top of a pork shoulder.

I like that you have the 10 linen layers for the plate as well, but again pork shoulder... ideally on a pell of some kind with some give. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJUIsTQ6eGs


Pork shoulder idea is great, I was contemplating a couple of cheap steaks but I think your idea is better.

Would you say it's pretty safe to say that maille throughout history was worn over linen more often than leather?
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,288

PostPosted: Sun 20 Jul, 2014 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is no evidence for wearing mail over leather. Records for leather clothing are exceptionally rare as well. There is little evidence for wearing mail over padded defenses in Europe until the second half of the 12th century, and no evidence for using 10-layered (or more) jacks beneath mail. The ordinance of St. Maximin de Treves , published October of 1473 calls for the wearing of a 10-layer, sleeveless, linen jack over a mail shirt.

The 1322 London regulation calls for varying stuffing depending on if the cover is of cotton or silk.
Quote:
That a haketon and a gambeson covered with sendale, or with cloth of silk, shall be stuffed with new cotton cloth, and with cadaz, and with old sendales, and in no other manner. And that white haketons shall be stuffed with old woven cloth, and with cotton, and made of new woven cloth within and without.

Sendale (sendal) is a type of silk. Cadaz (caddis) is listed by Merriam Webster as, "Middle English cadas cotton wool, from Anglo-French cadaz, from Old Occitan cadarz". At most we seem to have a cotton fabric shell, sometimes faced with silk, filled with loose cotton (English "cotton wool") and old, soft rags. Some accounts mention stuffing with tow, fluffy linen waste.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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