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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 2:10 am    Post subject: Visby coat of plates, new images.         Reply with quote

For anyone who is interested, I have posted some new Visby images, these are available in high resolution if needed.
http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/european-plate-armors/

High resolution image link.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7...54d3b9.jpg


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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess these plates are riveted one to another next to it?
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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fantastic. Great pictures!
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
I guess these plates are riveted one to another next to it?


Luca, I have not looked through all of the high resolution images but from what I have seen it appears that the plates are riveted to each other in this example but there are several different styles of armor. So far I have not seen any additional holes for mail or lacing but the plates are quite corroded.

The images can be found at this link, you will need to search for "wisby" to access them. Also fill in the box on the right that says "Visa enbart med bild" (Show only with photo).
http://mis.historiska.se/mis/sok/start.asp



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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Detail view from another Visby armor..
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A great view of the collection.

High resolution. http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/originals/a...e65400.jpg

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jun, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
I guess these plates are riveted one to another next to it?


That's armor #24, and the plates overlap, but are not riveted to, their neighbors.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jun, 2014 9:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Luka Borscak wrote:
I guess these plates are riveted one to another next to it?


That's armor #24, and the plates overlap, but are not riveted to, their neighbors.

Mart, from the photo it looks like the plates are riveted to each other, how were they connected if they were not riveted?
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Augusto Boer Bront
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Jun, 2014 2:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They are not riveted to each other, but the are riveted to the covering (leather or canvas) that hold them all together.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Jun, 2014 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thordeman specifically mentions remnants of a leather covering on armor 24 except on the scales over the shoulder. Here's one attempted recreation, although he missed the second set of smaller buckles beside the armpit.
http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rust...front.html
http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rust..._back.html
http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoas_rust...insid.html

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John Hardy




Location: Saskatoon SK Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 12:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
A great view of the collection.

High resolution. http://media-cache-cd0.pinimg.com/originals/a...e65400.jpg



I notice in that photo of the collection that it includes a number of the mail coifs / visors that were found on some of the bodies - shown in the collection on the skulls. Does anybody happen to know if those are reproductions of the skulls they were originally found on, or did they just park the entire find in the glass case there?

And following on, on one of the skulls, (middle bottom on photo), the mail head covering seems to cover everything except a small square opening that the teeth are showing through. Is the general opinion that that simply represents a small face opening that would originally have framed the eyes, nose and possibly mouth - and has just slipped down after death? Or might it have covered everything except the owner's nose and mouth for breathing while providing a mail 'curtain' visor protection for the eyes?
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto Boer Bront wrote:
They are not riveted to each other, but the are riveted to the covering (leather or canvas) that hold them all together.


Yes that seems to be the accepted method of plate attachment, the book lists only one instance of plates being attached to each other, on armor #2. Armour from the Battle of Wisby 1361: By Bengt Thordeman, in Collaboration with Poul Nörlund and Bo E. Ingelmark, 1939. Vol.1
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 26 Jun, 2014 12:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Hardy wrote:


I notice in that photo of the collection that it includes a number of the mail coifs / visors that were found on some of the bodies - shown in the collection on the skulls. Does anybody happen to know if those are reproductions of the skulls they were originally found on, or did they just park the entire find in the glass case there?

And following on, on one of the skulls, (middle bottom on photo), the mail head covering seems to cover everything except a small square opening that the teeth are showing through. Is the general opinion that that simply represents a small face opening that would originally have framed the eyes, nose and possibly mouth - and has just slipped down after death? Or might it have covered everything except the owner's nose and mouth for breathing while providing a mail 'curtain' visor protection for the eyes?


John, I started a Battle of Visby pinterest board, there are some more images of the skulls you mention, they appear in the original black and white photos from the early 1900s, I think they were found the way they are currently displayed, maybe someone knows for sure, here is the link to the pictures. (more to be added).
http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/the-battle-of-visby-wisby/


Here is armor #25 before if was removed, you can see what looks like the top of a skull and the remains of a coif.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/3...8a40f7.jpg
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John Hardy




Location: Saskatoon SK Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Jun, 2014 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
John Hardy wrote:


I notice in that photo of the collection that it includes a number of the mail coifs / visors that were found on some of the bodies - shown in the collection on the skulls. Does anybody happen to know if those are reproductions of the skulls they were originally found on, or did they just park the entire find in the glass case there?

And following on, on one of the skulls, (middle bottom on photo), the mail head covering seems to cover everything except a small square opening that the teeth are showing through. Is the general opinion that that simply represents a small face opening that would originally have framed the eyes, nose and possibly mouth - and has just slipped down after death? Or might it have covered everything except the owner's nose and mouth for breathing while providing a mail 'curtain' visor protection for the eyes?


John, I started a Battle of Visby pinterest board, there are some more images of the skulls you mention, they appear in the original black and white photos from the early 1900s, I think they were found the way they are currently displayed, maybe someone knows for sure, here is the link to the pictures. (more to be added).
http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/the-battle-of-visby-wisby/


Here is armor #25 before if was removed, you can see what looks like the top of a skull and the remains of a coif.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/3...8a40f7.jpg


Thanks. I went to your site and found it very interesting. Among other things, it reminded me that I once read that book "Armour from the Battle of Wisby". In fact, I'm almost sure I didn't just read it, I bought it - and my copy is buried somewhere in my room deep in a pile of other assorted books, along with that one about the forensic examination of bodies from the Battle of Towton... I guess it's time for me to go do some archaeological digging of my own. If you never hear from me on this site again, know that I died in the pursuit of knowledge...
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 26 Jun, 2014 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tommy Hellman has an analysis of several of the Wisby coifs in Swedish.
http://www.djurfeldt.com/patrik/cupps.html

His purpose was to look for evidence of linings, but he gives a fair amount of detail like ring counts as well. It is almost certain these were the typical German/Scandanavian coif with square panels in front and back with a face opening from brow to chin. Some of them have shifted in the burial site, and some may have been dislodged during the owner's final moments.

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Eric S




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PostPosted: Tue 01 Jul, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Hardy wrote:

Thanks. I went to your site and found it very interesting. Among other things, it reminded me that I once read that book "Armour from the Battle of Wisby". In fact, I'm almost sure I didn't just read it, I bought it - and my copy is buried somewhere in my room deep in a pile of other assorted books, along with that one about the forensic examination of bodies from the Battle of Towton... I guess it's time for me to go do some archaeological digging of my own. If you never hear from me on this site again, know that I died in the pursuit of knowledge...


John in case you can not find the book here are links to both volumes, I hope you find your copy, it is a rather expensive book.

Armour from the Battle of Wisby 1361: By Bengt Thordeman, in Collaboration with Poul Nörlund and Bo E. Ingelmark, 1939.
Vol 1 http://michael-engel.io.ua/album329328_0
Vol 2 http://michael-engel.io.ua/album331513
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jul, 2014 7:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the pictures. The forensics from Wisby always given me pause for some reason. From what I have read it was basically the town militia that got chopped up in that battle. When I'm at a local city council meeting or town hall I look at my neighbors and wonder what it would be like to put on armor, pick up our weapons and go face a threat to our town... It's a scary thought. Sorry waxing pensive this morning it seems... Happy
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Jul, 2014 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
From what I have read it was basically the town militia that got chopped up in that battle.


It was the Gutnish rural levy that fought outside the city walls, the townsfolk probably having declared themselves neutral.
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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 08 Jul, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mikael Ranelius wrote:
Russ Ellis wrote:
From what I have read it was basically the town militia that got chopped up in that battle.


It was the Gutnish rural levy that fought outside the city walls, the townsfolk probably having declared themselves neutral.


Interesting, I wonder why the rural levy was involved if the towns people were not. I really do need to purchase that book it seems...

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Mikael Ranelius




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PostPosted: Wed 09 Jul, 2014 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:



Interesting, I wonder why the rural levy was involved if the towns people were not. I really do need to purchase that book it seems...


Although both the town of Visby and the rest of (rural) Gotland were subjected to the Swedish crown they were really two separate, at times even rivalling political entities. At least since the Viking age the native Gotlanders or Gutes had prospered from trading with the rest of Europe, but in the 13th century their business was more or less eclipsed by the newly established Hanseatic town of Visby and its population largely composed of foreign merchants. The Visby merchants' attempts at controlling trade led to a brief war between Visby and the Gutes in 1288, which the latter lost.
So by the time of the Danish invasion in 1361, there was little love between the Visby merchants and the Gutes. One popular theory has it that the townspeople locked the gates as the desperate Gutnish levy tried to seek shelter (after already having been defeated by the Danes at the battle of Mästerby a couple of days before), but in fact there's no evidence to support that. Due to the lack of period sources, it's very difficult to establish what really happened on Gotland in 1361 and the reasons why the rural levy fought outside the walls of Visby remains a hotly debated topic to this day.
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