Quillon Dagger Help? -- myArmoury.com

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: Quillon Dagger Help?

I never cared much for the medieval daggers that echo the design of swords. The originals I see (especially in Harold Peterson's book on knives and daggers) are often of unappealing proportions, with very short, stout blades. That's one reason I admire the elegant and relatively long-bladed example Peter Johnsson recreated. That piece really opened my eyes to how beautiful this type could be. See it here: http://www.myArmoury.com/dagg_pj_dagger.html

The Albion Arn dagger is a semi-production piece of the same general type. A&A and Tod's Stuff offer other premium examples. I don't find many museum photos, unfortunately. I suspect that the Museum of London and RA-Leeds have barrels full of these daggers in various states of preservation, but I can't find anything online.

I'm considering a project of this type as a gift for an English friend using a large double-edged blade of diamond section, sloping cross of octagonal section and Type K pommel. The proportions seem okay to me but this is far afield from my usual interests and I just can't find much information. What do you think? Historically plausible for an English dagger in the period 1300-1400 or too much fantasy?

As for a scabbard, Peter Johnsson's dagger has a leather-only scabbard without locket and chape. Peterson suggests that these knightly daggers typically did have locket and chape. Is there any historical reason not to choose all-leather for this weapon?

All thoughts and suggestions are welcome. Museum photos would be especially helpful. I haven't found much through searching the fora here.

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

Hi Sean,

I was looking at this one today and discussing with a client.

I love its simplicity but also the uncompromising blade form.

Taken from the 2012 Park Lane Arms fair catalogue.

Tod

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject:

That's wonderful! I hope we'll get to see your interpretation some day. I like everything about that, especially the blade. But then I tend to favor the narrower thrusting blades for daggers. This is most helpful! Many thanks!

Mart Shearer · Posted: Thu 17 Apr, 2014 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Quillon Dagger Help?

Julien M · Posted: Sat 19 Apr, 2014 1:24 am Post subject:

Hi Sean,

Reminds me of the windlass sword hilted dagger - another project that is in limbo Happy

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18731&view=next

The unpleasant thing about this piece was the size and weight of the pommel, making for a very awkward balance: it wants to stand vertically in your hand, tip pointing upwards).

The sticking feature about PJ's dagger is how thin the pommel section is, so I wanted to improve the balance by dramatically tinning down the pommel (in fact when you remove the pommel, the balance is an inch down the blade, so pretty much it already).

J

Julien M · Posted: Sat 19 Apr, 2014 3:06 am Post subject:

Here is a very appealing one IMO. I'm considering this design for my A Sovereign moat blade.
It took me a while to figure out it was indeed a dagger (and I'm still not fully convinced it is indeed one).

Source: pict carl.koppeschaar (is he a member here? what an amazing contribution)- Stiftung Baumann

I'd love more pictures of this one if anyone has any.

Got to scan you another one, interesting design with ball pommel

Sean Flynt · Posted: Sat 19 Apr, 2014 5:20 am Post subject:

that's another lovely piece--a riding sword, maybe? i have one of those in mind as well!

my pommel is relatively thin through the main body, but with deep faces that will have to be reduced. drilling it will further reduce weight. I'm not at all sure where the balance point should be. i would tend to desire a point below the cross.

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Here are a couple:

It's from Logan Thompson's book Daggers and Bayonets. The caption for that image (which also originally included a fragmentary dagger) is: quillon daggers from London, late 12th century onwards.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Sat 19 Apr, 2014 7:26 am Post subject:

Thanks, Chad! I figured this topic was in your field of interest.

Danny Grigg · Posted: Sun 20 Apr, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject:

Here are 3 from the British Museum:

OA.19
https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=35869&partId=1&searchText=Quillon+Dagger&page=1

1842,1105.2
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collect...amp;page=1

1894,0212.44
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collect...amp;page=1

3 more from "Hermann Historica"
Auction 53

Lot Nr.2216
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/auktio...at53_p.txt

Lot Nr.2217
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/auktio...at53_p.txt

Lot Nr.2218
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/auktio...at53_p.txt

Danny

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 23 Apr, 2014 7:16 am Post subject:

Thanks, Danny!

There seems to be great variety in hilts and blades, so I'm going to proceed with my original idea for the dagger itself. I'm still undecided about a sheath/scabbard. I've seen some impressive lockets and chapes on effigy daggers, but I'd sooner have none at all than do that badly.

I've drilled and reduced the pommel and made an initial fitting. This gives me a much better idea of the project's viability.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 12 May, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject:

Progress on the pommel, quillons and grip. I also have a tentative design for the sheath, so I'm moving right along! Still some filework and polishing to do on the hilt.

Leo Todeschini · Industry Professional

Thats looking great Sean, really clean lines and well fitted to your hand.

That promises to be a nice piece.

I have started a repro of the one I posted up from Castillon and will post that up in due course too.

What is interesting is that what we consider to be really big daggers are not as unusual in the record as perhaps you would expect.

Tod

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 12 May, 2014 3:51 pm Post subject:

Thanks! It's feeling better, too. Even with the overweight pommel there's enough blade length that when I slash with it I feel that it could do some damage. It feels as if there 's a weight that slides farther down the blade the faster I move it, then slides back up to the quillons at rest.

Can't wait to see your project!

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 13 May, 2014 9:08 am Post subject:

Progress on the grip. For me, faceting is usually just a stage of development to keep things straight and symmetrical, with the edges gradually reduced to create an oval-to-round section. In this case, I'm liking the hexagonal section and might keep it as the final section.

I do about 99 percent of grip shaping with the Surform rasp you see beside the vise. It's the closest thing to a magic wand I have. The surface of the grip you see in the vise is rasp only. The mounted grip has had some refining with sandpaper. I might still need to reduce and refine in a few places, but this is pretty much what the core will look like, assuming I stick with the hexagonal section.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2014 7:21 am Post subject:

I have to start thinking about the scababard. I'll probably stick to geometric stamping but felt that I should at least experiment with cutting and beasties. Tried some quick and very crude work inspired by a design in the MOL's Knives and Scabbards. I can see some potential, but I think I prefer the look of stamping. In any case, I think it would take longer to master the cutting techniques than I have to spare for this project.

I'm trying some oxblood dye as well. That might be all the flash I want, and I can always over-dye with black if I don't like it.

Radovan Geist · Posted: Fri 20 Jun, 2014 3:57 am Post subject:

I´m afraid it´s not so much of a help when it comes to scabbard... I just thought to post it here, as it is a very interesting representative of this group of daggers:
A Burgundian knightly dagger/knife (circa 1400), auction now at HH -
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm68...t68_aw.txt

Sean Flynt · Posted: Mon 23 Jun, 2014 6:41 am Post subject:

That's a great one, Radovan! Thanks!

I hope to assemble the dagger this week so I can hit my July 1 goal for the whole project. I decided to go with plain black for for the grip because I really want to make a tooled sheath inspired by the design of the recent London find shown here. I think that's just about perfect for this dagger and the period it represents. Oxblood plus tooling just seems a bit much for my tastes. If I screw up the tooling I might rely on a decorative chape for the flash.

Radovan Geist · Posted: Mon 23 Jun, 2014 11:27 pm Post subject:

That grip is really nice & clean, Sean. Did you sew it, or is it just glued? (I´m also curious because of my own running project:))

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 24 Jun, 2014 7:25 am Post subject:

The seam is slightly overlapped so that the fingers pull in the direction of the wrap instead of against it. The wrap is glued and tightly bound with cord until dry. Waxing, burnishing and polishing complete it. It'll need one more polishing before it's finished.