Sutton Hoo mail coat - solid and riveted with copper rivets. -- myArmoury.com

Paul Mortimer

I have wanted to get such a mail coat for a long time and have tried several different makers over the years but had no luck - recently Matt Bunker introduced me to a new English company - Armoured Up who were not only able to provide a coat with copper rivets but also have tailored it, too.
The original is a mass of corrosion products but the links are still visible and the copper rivets were revealed using x-rays. It is difficult to tell exactly what the original link size was but it is around the 6mm internal diameter. That' the size that Armoured Up has used on my coat. Unfortunately, very few other details can be gleaned from the remains of the mail, which now exists as a congealed heap. There does appear to have been rather a lot of it, so it may actually have been two garments.

I have added a picture.

Why copper rivets were used is difficult to say, but the Sutton Hoo coat isn't the only one.

Dan Howard · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 4:45 pm Post subject:

I thought that the Sutton Hoo mail was 6mm outside diameter, not inside. I'll dig up the report and check. The problem is that there are no mass producers of mail that do links that small. IIRC there a custom mail maker in England called Tony Whittaker who has worked with copper rivets before. He might be worth contacting. Another is Mark Chapman. Their mail would be a lot closer to the original than the Indian mail in your photo.

Mart Shearer · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject:

https://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/9%20Adams-opt-sec.pdf

Kai Lawson · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject:

I really think that the listed mass of 11.23 grams is inaccurate for the mail fragment. Kilograms, I could believe--but a copper and iron/iron oxide mass more than a silver dollar weighing only 2% of a pound?

Back on track, are there more mail masses or depictions of likely mailed persons from this time period that might better indicate the size or shape of the original garment?

Dan Howard · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 11:20 pm Post subject:

Thanks Mart. Though the link diameter in this instance doesn't really mean much. Iron increases significantly in volume as it oxidises. It is likely that the original diameter of the links was a lot smaller than the rusted remains.

Dan Howard · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject:

The copper rivets are perplexing. Nobody has come up with a plausible reason why they were used. Perhaps they were intended for decorative purposes.

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 11:43 pm Post subject:

Dan -- it isn't Indian mail -- whatever that means. It was made in England by Stephen Rhodes of Armoured Up.
The sizing of rings in the report (Bruce-Mitford 1978 page 232 is ) 8 cm and this is qualified by the word 'estimated'. The ring size chosen at 6mm internal diameter produces a similar external diameter to 8 mm.
BTW I know Tony Whittaker and approached him years ago to see if he was interested in making a coat for me; he wasn't -- I also asked a well known maker in he USA and never got an answer.

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 11:56 pm Post subject:

Kai -- the original report gives 11.23 Kg. There are depictions of mail being worn from the period -- the images appear on pressed plates on helmets from Sweden and England -- (the English examples were found in the Staffordshire Hoard -- it is possible that they weren't mounted on a helmet - we can't know for sure).
Mart - you are correct, of course.

Authorof Woden Warriors; Warfare, Beliefs, Arms and Armour in Northern Europe during the 6th and 7th Centuries.
Remaking the Sutton Hoo Stone: the Ansell-Roper Relica and its Context
Both published by Anglo-Saxon Books

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 12:08 am Post subject:

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 1:06 am Post subject:

Dan -- we will just have to disagree. Having seen quite a few surviving pieces of period mail from various places in England, and the Continent, I think that it is a good approximation and does resemble actual finds.

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 1:15 am Post subject:

I'd love to see pics of some - anything dating before the 16th century.

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 1:24 am Post subject:

Dan -- you mean that you haven't seen pictures of the mail from Vimose -- the mail on the Swedish helmet finds -- The mail from the Coppergate helmet? You do surprise me.

Mikko Kuusirati · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 3:49 am Post subject:

Here's an excellent museum photo of the Vimose hauberk. Zoom in to 100% and look closely at the riveted links, especially around the tears and the neck hole where you can see them from all angles. You'll see they look quite different from those posted here.

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 4:05 am Post subject:

I am not saying that the new mail looks exactly like the originals in all the close details - I did try to get that done via other makers but I could get no-one to take the project on as I explained in previous post. What I am saying is that the new mail is a very reasonable reproduction and for most purposes perfectly adequate.
This is also the first attempt, as far as I know, to replicate the effect of copper rivets; it is around that, I feel, that it would be most useful to have a discussion.

Almost all (if not all) replicas have to involve some compromises, either in the materials, the working methods, etc.

Dan Howard · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 4:26 am Post subject:

I suppose a Volkswagen and a Rolls Royce both look like cars but you can't get a RR for the price of a VW.

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 6:07 am Post subject:

Mikko Kuusirati · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 6:21 am Post subject:

Well, I see no reason why he shouldn't enjoy it. If he says it's adequate for his purposes, that's really all that matters in that regard.

Just keep in mind the large stamped tabs look nothing like historical mail (at least up close), are likely to make for a weaker construction and can potentially interfere with the way the weave moves.

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 7:45 am Post subject:

It is certainly possible that the rivets were of bronze and those would have been pretty much as strong as iron.

Dan -- VWs and Rolls Royces? Well really!

Kai Lawson · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 8:30 am Post subject:

While we're on the subject of 'interesting' mail (i.e. copper alloy rivets instead of iron), can anyone give me any clues as to why the manufacture of some form of plated mail doesn't appear to be widespread in the west? I believe that the late western roman heavy cavalry had some variant of it (or could have possibly made the jump to it from what they were using; I may be utterly wrong here). Is there a cultural or physical reason it was not introduced?

Paul Mortimer · Posted: Wed 05 Mar, 2014 9:39 am Post subject:

Kel - the original science report by W A Oddy and A E A Werner (Bruce-Mitford 1978 page 20) on examining a surviving rivet, says, "The spot was found to be mainly copper, containing lesser quantities of iron, lead, silver, silicon magnesium and calcium. These elements are mostly derived from the soil and the rivets were probably made of copper containing small amounts of lead and silver." So perhaps not bronze?

As for not 'seeing the difference between mechanically flattened overlaps on Indian rings compared to no similarly flattened overlap in western or eastern mail... then please continue to enjoy your commission" -- I tell you again, that I have seen quite a few examples of period mail in England, Sweden and Denmark - and unless you get up really close, you don't really notice any difference.